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• Tolkien's time line

• Tolkien's time line

  Michael > October 21st, 2004, 03:25 PM

  I cam across this while I was digging up old citations for the Sam, Elladan, Elrohir, and Celeborn thread. I thought it would be interesting. I HOPE it formats correctly. The table should appear in four columns. (NOTE: This is NOT the chronological table I included in Parma Endorion).
  
  
  The final version of "The Heirs of Elendil" certainly does not include the statement in the second version:
  
  

  Quote:Here ends the Red Book. But it was foretold that Eldarion the son of Elessar should rule a great realm, and it should endure for a hundred generations of men; and from him should come the kings of many realms in after days.

  
  But this statement IS included in T4, the version of "The Tale of Years" which was proposed to the publishers in 1954 (according to Christopher):
  
  

  Quote:Of Eldarion son of Elessar it was foretold that he should rule a great realm, and that it should endure for a hundred generations of Men after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things; and from him should come the kings of many realms in long days after. But if this foretelling spoke truly, none now can say, for Gondor and Arnor are no more; and even the chronicles of the House of Elessar and all their deeds and glory are lost.

  
  The compression which occurred for sake of publication should not, in my opinion, be viewed as a culling of traditions, whereas such culling occurred in "The Heirs of Elendil". Rather, it seems evident that Tolkien was forced to drop material that he viewed as canonical. If we must exclude anything merely because it was not published in LOTR, then we must exclude virtually everything that was not published in LOTR.
  
  The prophecy, BTW (if I may slightly change the subject), gives us a marker for the end of the Fourth Age: approximately 2500 years, which reflects a generation of Men of about 25 years. Such a span is purely arbitrary, but it is consistent with what Tolkien writes in the footnote of his letter to Rhona Beare (dated 14 October 1958, Letter #211):
  
  

  Quote:I imagine the gap [between the Fall of Barad-dur and our Days] to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as the S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.

  
  If I may be permitted a little rigid literalism here for the sake of illustrating my point, we could postulate the following timeline:
  
  1958 - 6000 = 4042
  
  Fall of Barad-dur was in 4042 BCE
  
  Hence,
  
  

  Code:

  [color=black][b]
  Dating By Age BCE          AYS
  ------------- ----------   -----------------------------------------------
    FA    1     10,892 BCE      1  Fingolfin enters Hithlum.
    FA  455     10,438 BCE    455  Dagor Bragollach.  Fingon becomes High
                                   King of the Noldor-in-Exile.  Many
                                   Marachians and Beorians flee Estolad
                                   and return to Eriador.  Barahir becomes
                                   Lord of Ladros.  Most of the Beorians
                                   flee to Dor-Lomin.
    FA  473     10,420 BCE    473  Nirnaeth Arnoediad.  Turgon becomes
                                   High King of the Noldor-in-Exile.
    FA  510     10,383 BCE    510  Gondolin is destroyed.  Ereinion Gil-
                                   galad becomes High King of the Noldor-
                                   in-exile.
    FA  532     10,361 BCE    532  Elrond and Elros are born in Arvernien.
    FA  587     10,306 BCE    587  Breaking of Thangorodrim.  Elrond (and
                                   Elros?) present at the battle.
    FA  590     10,303 BCE    590  Many Eldar leave Middle-earth.
    SA    1     10,302 BCE    591  Cirdan establishes Mithlond.  Gil-galad
                                   establishes Forlond.  Celeborn establishes
                                   Harlond?
    SA   32     10,271 BCE    622  Cirdan's mariners take the Edain to the
                                   isle of Elenna (Numenor).
    SA   40     10,263 BCE    630  Latest probable date for founding of
                                   Edhellond.
    SA  442       9861 BCE   1032  Elros Tar-Minyatur dies in Numenor.
    SA  600       9703 BCE   1190  Veantur the Numenorean sails to Middle-
                                   earth.  Gil-galad arranges for him to
                                   meet with Edainic men from Eriador.
    SA 1590       8713 BCE   2180  Celebrimbor forges Vilya, Narya, and Nenya.
    SA 1600       8703 BCE   2190  Sauron forges the One and the Elves learn
                                   who he is.
    SA 1695       8608 BCE   2285  Sauron invades Eriador.  Gil-galad sends
                                   Elrond to Eregion with an army.
    SA 1697       8606 BCE   2287  Sauron destroys Eregion.  Elrond retreats
                                   north to found Imladris.
  c.SA 1698       8605 BCE   2288  Sauron overruns Eriador.
  c.SA 1700       8603 BCE   2290  About this time, the Edain of Eriador may
                                   cross the Hithaeglir to settle in the Vales
                                   of Anduin (becoming, eventually, the Free
                                   Men of the North, or Northmen).
    SA 1701       8602 BCE   2291  With Numenor's help, Gil-galad defeats
                                   Sauron and drives him from Eriador.
  c.SA 1702       8601 BCE   2292  Gil-galad holds the first White Council
                                   and names Elrond his Viceroy in Eriador.
  c.SA 1800       8503 BCE   2390  About this time, the Numenoreans begin
                                   to establish permanent havens in Middle-
                                   earth.
    SA 3320       6983 BCE   3910  Downfall of Numenor.  Elendil and his sons
                                   establish Arnor and Gondor.
    SA 3429       6874 BCE   4019  Sauron attacks Gondor.  The Last Alliance
                                   of Elves and Men is formed by Gil-galad
                                   and Elendil.
    SA 3434       6869 BCE   4024  Battle of Dagorlad.
    SA 3441       6862 BCE   4031  Sauron battles Gil-galad and Elendil.  End
                                   of the War.  Mordor destroyed.
    TA    1       6861 BCE   4032  Cirdan becames Lord of Mithlond and Lindon.
                                   Isildur becomes High King in Gondor.
                                   Amroth becomes King of Lothlorien.
                                   Thranduil becomes King of Northern
                                   Greenwood the Great.
    TA    2       6860 BCE   4033  Isildur slain by Orcs near Amon Lanc.
    TA    3       6859 BCE   4034  Ohtar reaches Imladris.
    TA   10       6852 BCE   4041  Valandil becomes High King in Arnor.
    TA  863       5999 BCE   5104  Arnor is divided into Arthedain,
                                   Cardolan, and Rhudaur.  No more High
                                   Kings of the Dunedain are proclaimed.
    TA 1356       5506 BCE   5387  Rhudaur attacks Cardolan and Arthedain.
                                   Cirdan leads or sends an army to Arthedain.
    TA 1409       5462 BCE   5440  Angmar invades Arthedain.  Cirdan and
                                   Elrond help end the invasion.  Rhudaur
                                   ceases to exist.  The last prince of
                                   Cardolan perishes.  Arthedain absorbs
                                   what's left of Cardolan.
    TA 1600       5471 BCE   5631  Marco and Blanco found the Shire.
    TA 1636       5435 BCE   5667  The Great Plague devastates Eriador and
                                   Gondor.
    TA 1974       5097 BCE   6005  Angmar destroys Arthedain.  Arvedui dies.
    TA 1975       5096 BCE   6006  Battle of Fornost Erain.  End of Angmar.
    TA 1981       5090 BCE   6012  The Dwarves abandon Khazad-dum and many
                                   Elves flee Lothlorien.  Amroth dies and
                                   Nimrodel is lost.  Edhellond is finally
                                   abandoned by the Elves.
    TA 2510       4561 BCE   6541  Battle of Parth Celebrant.  Eorl leads the
                                   Eotheod south to Gondor's aid.  Rohan is
                                   founded.
    TA 2590       4481 BCE   6621  Thror re-establishes his people in Erebor.
                                   Gror settles in Emyn Engrin.
    TA 2770       4301 BCE   6801  Smaug attacks Erebor and Dale.  Thror
                                   and his family escape.  Many of Durin's
                                   Folk settle in Emyn Engrin.  Girion of
                                   Dale's wife and young child escape to
                                   Esgaroth.
    TA 2799       4262 BCE   6830  Battle of Nanduhirion.  Azog slain.
    TA 2931       4130 BCE   6962  Birth of Aragorn II.
    TA 2941       4120 BCE   6972  Thorin and Company return to Erebor.
                                   Battle of the Five Armies.  Bolg slain.
                                   The White Council drives Sauron from
                                   Dol Guldur.  Erebor is re-established
                                   by Dain.
    TA 3019       4042 BCE   7050  The War of the Ring.  Sauron overthrown.
                                   Aragorn establishes the Reunited Kingdom
                                   and marries Arwen.  Celeborn establishes
                                   the Kingdom of East Lorien.
    TA 3021       4040 BCE   7052  Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf leave
                                   Middle-earth, taking Frodo and Bilbo
                                   with them.
  c.FO    1       4039 BCE   7053  About this time, Legolas and Gimli lead
                                   part of their peoples to Gondor?
    FO   15       4024 BCE   7067  Aragorn visits Arnor.
    FO   60       3980 BCE   7112  Departure of Samwise over Sea.
    FO   63       3977 BCE   7115  Death of Eomer.
    FO   82       3958 BCE   7134  Death of Faramir.
    FO  120       3920 BCE   7172  Death of Aragorn.  Arwen returns to
                                   Lorien.  Legolas (and Gimli?) sail
                                   over Sea.
    FO  121       3919 BCE   7173  Death of Arwen in Lorien.
    FO  172       3868 BCE   7227  Last notations made in the Thain's Book
                                   by Findegil.
  c.FO  220       3820 BCE   7272  Eldarion passes away.
  c.FO 2700       1320 BCE   9772  End of the Fourth Age.[/color][/b]

  
  The Fifth Age could have lasted from 1319 BCE to approximately 550 AD (about 1870 yeats). The Sixth Age, if it's still going on, has lasted about 1446 years.
  
  Why did I pick AD 550? Because that was about the time when the Gothic Kingdom in Italy was destroyed, and also was about the time when the Anglo-Saxons started making headway against the British Celts once again. It signalled the end of the ancient world and brought on the "modern" world. This is relatively late for most people who think in terms of when the Medieval period may have started, but I think the transition from age-to-age is a very abrupt thing. Classical civilization was altered radically in the 6th Century AD, and Tolkien may have agreed with that assessment to some extent.
  
  If we want to speculate on when Eldarion might have been born, I would guess sometime in the years FO 30 - 40. This way he would have died no older than 190 years and perhaps at only 180 years.
  
  But I think one can only wonder about how long Celeborn stayed in Middle-earth. Since there is no record of his having left, it must be that many years after his departure Men or Hobbits went to Imladris and found no one there.

• Tolkien's time line

  Gildor Inglorion > October 21st, 2004, 09:35 PM

  This is very interesting, but troubling. I like to keep Middle-earth and "real history" separate in my mind, and the idea that the LR occurred in some unspecified but remote period of the past of our world serves that compartmentalization well.
  
  But your calculation, based on (as you say) canonical but editorially deleted comments from JRRT, that the War of the Ring occurred in 4042 BCE (not to mention the realm of the Telcontar dynasty lasting to 1320 BCE, presents a lot of problems.
  
  According to the Ancient History Chronology at http://www.kfu.com/~pharvey/chronology10k-601bce
  the Uruk period of Sumerian prehistory ran from 4500 to 3500 BCE, the earliest remains at Jericho date from 7000 BCE and those of Catal Huyuk from 6000.
  
  I suppose these could be viewed as Haradrim realms. (Literacy didn't appear until around 3300 BCE, so all we have to go on is archaeology, so we know they had towns and pottery, not their names and historic details).
  
  Since the coasts of modern Europe are significantly different than M-e's, we can assume some cataclysm occurred, and the earliest civilizations we know of were far enough south and easy that the early Egyptians/Mesopotamians may not have noticed.
  
  Still I'd prefer to push M-e another 1 or 2 thousand years back - the overlap with the faint beginnings of "real history" really bother my "willing suspension of disbelief."

• Tolkien's time line

  Maerbenn > October 22nd, 2004, 11:43 AM

  Something that may be very relevant to this discussion was posted by Wandering Tuor on another Tolkien message board that I frequent:

  Quote:There is an article in the August 2004 issue of The Journal of the Tolkien Society on this topic, by one Tony Steele. Here's a brief excerpt:

  Quote:According to Theosophical doctrine, the last vestige of the once mighty continent of Atlantis sank beneath the waves in 9564 BC. Much later, the Kali Yuga (or Fourth Age of the present World Cycle) began in 3012 BC. These two events, therefore, are separated by 6462 years. Now it turns out that the sinking of Beleriand (not Númenor) is separated from the beginning of the Fourth Age of Middle-earth by precisely the same time-span, 6462 years. The math is simple – Beleriand was destroyed in the final year of the First Age, the Second Age lasted 3441 years, and the Third Age lasted 3020 years (plus a couple months or so). 1 + 3441 + 3020 = 6462 . . .

  Steele therefore theorizes that the ME ages began as follows:
  
  Second Age: 9563 BC
  Third Age: 6122 BC
  Fourth Age: 3102 BC
  
  Steele then notes that in LotR, there was a full moon on the night of 8/9 Narvinyë (when the Fellowship left Hollin), and so calculates that this date must have been Monday, December 31, 3105 BC. :bg:
  
  It goes on from there – all very amusing and interesting.
  
  If you’re interested in this topic, you can probably get the article by joining The Tolkien Society, which is a good idea anyway.

  Unfortunately I have not read the article myself, but it does sound very interesting in my opinion.

• Tolkien's time line

  celeb-galad > October 22nd, 2004, 12:07 PM

  Quote:Originally posted by Gildor Inglorion
  Still I'd prefer to push M-e another 1 or 2 thousand years back - the overlap with the faint beginnings of "real history" really bother my "willing suspension of disbelief."

  
  
  If you asked me, I'd push it even further back to give it an even greater sense of remoteness and ancient-ness.
  
  But a great timeline nonetheless.

• Tolkien's time line

  Michael > October 27th, 2004, 05:04 PM

  There is a mistake in the time line which I did not noticed when I reposted it. I apparently devised this chronology before I had a chance to read and evaluate the essay "Of Dwarves and Men" in The Peoples of Middle-earth. That essay invalidated one of my theories regarding the origins of the Northmen.
  
  The following entry is completely bogus:
  
  

  Code:

  [color=black][b]
  c.SA 1700       8603 BCE   2290  About this time, the Edain of Eriador may
                                   cross the Hithaeglir to settle in the Vales
                                   of Anduin (becoming, eventually, the Free
                                   Men of the North, or Northmen).
[/b][/color]

• Tolkien's time line

  Attalus > October 27th, 2004, 05:45 PM

  Interesting. I always pictured the old Biblical patriarchs running around in the Middle East while the Gondorian Empire was maintained in the West.
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