Difference between Silvan and Sindar Elves?

[Undomiel]

Hey all,
I was just wondering, where do Silvan elves fit in? Are they a branch off of Sindar? I know the Sindars are those under Thingol and Melian (and their descendents) but who are the Silvan elves? I know Silvan means "woodland" but how do they fit into the "scheme" of elves?

[Michael]

It depends on how much of the post-LoTR material you want to accept as canonical. The Sindar are associated with Beleriand, whereas the Silvan Elves are associated with the forests east of the Misty Mountains.

The Sindar are considered be Eldarin Elves, whereas the Silvan Elves are not.

And so on.

[celeb-galad]

Aren't the Eldar all those who started the journey, no matter how far they made it? Wouldn't that make the Silvan elves to be Eldar also?

[Attalus]

Michael beat me to the punch. The Sindar, as he says, were Eldar, who made the Great Journey to Aman. The Silvans were Avari, like Green and Grey Elves. If you didn't make it to Aman and converse with the Valar, you weren't Eldar.

[Tar-Elenion]

The Sindar did not make it to Aman. They were among those Teleri who got as far as Beleriand, then stopped to hunt for the missing Thingol.

[Alvin Eriol]

It was my understanding that, as Celeb-Galad said, all of the Elves who undertook the Great Journey, & their descendants, were considered Eldar, "Elves of the Great Journey". They were the elves belonging to the three nations of the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri. Those who declined to start the Journey were by definition Avari, "the Unwilling".

Those Elves who actually did arrive in Aman during the time of the Two Trees were considered "Calaquendi", Elves of the Light. All Calaquiendi were Eldar, but many of the Teleri remained behind in Middle-Earth, as was said. These include the Nandor who turned aside at the Misty Mts, and the Laiquendi who came of them and ended up settling in Ossiriand.

The chart in the Sil77 "The Sundering of the Elves" diagrams this in a simple fashion, but it doesn't show the Silvan Elves by that name. It seems to me that the Silvan elves of the 2nd-3rd Ages would have to be either Nandor who remained there during the Journey, Laiquendi who fled back East late in the Beleriand Wars, or Avari, or perhaps combinations of the three. The first two are in my understanding classed as Eldar, while the third was of course by definition not.

It was also my understanding that few if any Avari actually reached Beleriand (or even Eriador?) during the First Age, since they did not journey West purposefully. (This is open to question although IIRC in some of the "apocryphal" writings JRRT at least played with the idea that Eol of Nan Elmoth was actually Avari rather than a prince of Sindar.)

The question of whether the Silvan Elves were Eldar or Avari (even if some are a mixture of the two) seems to have some significance, because JRRT in Letter # 154 appears to have asserted that only the Eldar were invited after the War of Wrath to depart Middle-Earth whenever they were ready to do so.

But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves -- not to other varieties, they had long ago made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-Earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-Earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea... [emph mine]

Therefore, it would seem an Elf considered to be of the Avari is not welcome to pass into the West.

Therefore, given the foregoing, if Avari did in fact mingle with Eldar (Nandor, Laiquendi, Sindarins from Doriath, and others) to produce the Silvan Elves, it appears their offspring inherited the grace-right of the Eldar to Depart to the West. Either that, or Avari never came to the West of Middle-Earth through the early Fourth Age.

How else do you explain the departure of Legolas, a Silvan elf albeit a scion of a royal Sindarin family from Doriath? Note that he had no particular longing to do so until he actually saw and heard the Sea and its creatures. Or the fact that Nimrodel's Silvan maids apparently expected to be able to take ship with her, had they arrived as planned at the little Elf-haven of Belfalas where Amroth played out his tragedy?

[ithildin]

This quote seems to indicate that the Silvan Elves were Eldar.

The Silvan Elves (Tarwarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor. They were descended from those of the Teleri who, on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin, and so never reached Beleriand or the Sea. They were thus closer akin to the Nandor (otherwise called the Green-elves) of Ossiraind, who eventually crossed the mountains and came at last into Beleriand.
UT: History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix A - The Silvan Elves and their Speech



Yet, these two (rather redundant) quotes from HOME 12 indicate otherwise:

“For there were other Elves of various kinds in the world; and many were Eastern Elves that had harkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills as Men usurped the lands. Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of the Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lórien both Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter nothing appears in this book and many of the Elvish names of persons or of places that are used most are of Grey-elven form.”
HoME XII, Peoples of Middle-earth, Appendix on Languages, p 174.


“There were also Elves of other kind. The East-elves that being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remain even now; and the Teleri, kinsfolk of the High Elves who never went westward, but lingered on the shores of Middle-earth until the return of the Noldor. In the Third Age few of the Teleri were left, and they for the most part dwelt as lords among the East-elves in woodland realms far from the Sea, which nonetheless they longed for in their hearts. Of this kind were the Elves of Mirkwood, and of Lórien; but Galadriel was a lady of the Noldor. In this book there are several names of Telerian form 2, but little else appears of their language.”
2. A footnote at this point reads: ‘Such as Thranduil and Legolas from Mirkwood; Lórien, Galadriel, Caras Galadon, Nimrodel, Amroth and others from Loth-lórien.’
HoME XII, Peoples of Middle-earth, Appendix on Languages, From pp73-74, & note #2 from p82


I think there is a quote stating that the Avari were intermixed with the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien as they were earlier with the Nandor and Green Elves in Beleriand, and I also remember a quote stating that the Silvan Elves could and did respond to the Sea-longing. I’ll try to find these again for you in a couple of days. HoME can be a bit of a trackless jungle at times.

Ithildin *(

[celeb-galad]

Thanks for that wonderful post, Alvin. I agree with the whole of it.

ithildin, it doesn't seem to me that the two quotes from HoME XII indicate with any certainity that the Silvan Elves were not Eldarin elves.

Nice to see you guys again!

[Attalus]

Good to see you again, too, Celeb-Galad. I agree with AE's post except that Legolas, as the son of a Sindarin, would automatically have the right and privilege to go over Sea. As Michael says, this is one of the issues that JRRT changed his mind about, a lot.

[Michael]

Tolkien's view of the Silvan Elves evolved over time, and it's impossible to sort out all the contradictions satisfactorily. In some places the Avari are not able to pass over Sea, and in other places they are. In some places the Silvan Elves are Avari, and in others they are Eldar.