Galdor

[Kirinki54]

He appears at the Council of Elrond as a messenger from Círdan the Shipwright. But as I recall, we are never told what his errand was? Did Tolkien put him in the story just as a reference to Círdan?

[Maciliel]

Hi Kirinki! Could this have been when Cirdan passed his ring on to Gandalf?(Sorry, forget the name of Cirdan/Gandalf's ring and don't have books handy.)

[Elenmir]

Originally Posted by Maciliel

Hi Kirinki! Could this have been when Cirdan passed his ring on to Gandalf?(Sorry, forget the name of Cirdan/Gandalf's ring and don't have books handy.)

No. Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf when he first arrived from the West. It says so in the text that precedes the Third Age, in the Tale of Years (Appendix B).

[Michael]

We never learn anything more about Galdor's errand, but I suspect it may have been related to Elrond's ship, which left about three years after that time (I don't feel like checking the book on the time frame).

[Maciliel]

I think Galdor was there so that he could report back to Cirdan on what was going on, what the plan would be, so that Cirdan & company could plan for their end of things.

[Elenmir]

Originally Posted by Maciliel

I think Galdor was there so that he could report back to Cirdan on what was going on, what the plan would be, so that Cirdan & company could plan for their end of things.

If you mean "what was going on" in reference to the Ring, I don't think that likely. As far as I can see, Cirdan didn't know prior to the Council of Elrond (and Galdor's subsequent return to Lindon) that anything was going on in that regard.

I like Michael's idea that Elrond was being fitted for boats.

[Kirinki54]

Originally Posted by Michael

We never learn anything more about Galdor's errand, but I suspect it may have been related to Elrond's ship, which left about three years after that time (I don't feel like checking the book on the time frame).

That makes sense.

But just to speculate, Círdan who was the most far-sighted Elf in ME, might have detected some stirrings concerning the One, and sent Galdor to scout or make council with Elrond. (Or Círdan might simply have heard of the Nine being abroad again.)

And of course, whether Galdor was one of the "called" or not (eg whether his errand was Ring-related or not), it made sense anyway to invite him to that crucial meeting.

Hi yourself, Maciliel! Long time no e...

[ithildin]

Was this the same Galdor as the one in 'The Fall of Gondolin'?
I know that was an earlier story and the mythology changed as Tolkien developed it. Is it just another case of the name being reused or is there any posiblility the character was continued into LOTR?

Ithildin *(

[Gildor Inglorion]

IIRC correctly, Galdor contributed little to the Council - a vague memory of Bombadil and the assertion that if the Ring were sent overseas, the Valer would refuse to accept it.
Michael's idea that he was in Rivendell to consult about the Last ship is interesting - it menas he could have been there for a while and thus not on the Road at the same time as Frodo and the Nazgul.
Thing is, Elrond wouldn't be having a ship built unless he was planning to depart in the near future. But the holders of the 3 Rings weren't going to depart while the matter of the Ring was unsettled and, until Gandalf showed up what 6 days before Frodo, Elrond wouldn't know the Ring had been found.
(Gandalf didn't know for sure until he tested the Ring in Frodo's fireplace, and then he was detained in Isengard)
Gandalf passed through Rivendell on his way from his interview with Gollum in Mirkwood to the Shire. He didn't have proof yet, but what Gollum had told him was pretty persuasive - I don't see any reason why he wouldn't share his concerns with his friend/ally.
So Elrond says to himself "Hmmm, the Ring has been found - better make plans to scram. Hey Gildor, go see Cirdan, tell him we may need a ship, soon! Once he has some blueprints done up, he'd best send that Galdor chap here for consultations. I'd like to see them no later than (intuitive flash) end of October..."

[Michael]

But Elrond had the gift of foresight....

[Gildor Inglorion]

Michael rightly reminds us

But Elrond had the gift of foresight....

However, my impression is that foresight was a hit-or-miss affair, functionong intermittently and soemthing like looking through colored and distorted glass.

Still, there'd been lots of signs for a while that things were coming to a critical juncture, so Elrond may have submitted his "order" years before, and that ship might even have been finished and on "stand-by."

[Michael]

It could also be that Cirdan was putting in an order for lembas, assuming that Mrs. Cirdan had already left with the other Elves.

Or maybe they were making arrangements for the next pilgrimage. It seems there could have been quite a convention at the tower hills if every Elf in Eriador decided to go look in the Palantir at the same time.

[MalGalad]

Could there not have been near constant travel between Rivendell and the coast? The road does not appear to be too perilous until the 9 appear. In which case Galdor just happened to be most senior of Cirdan's people present at the time, on a fairly rountine errand.

[Attalus]

Well, we have Aragorn's observation that folk are always glad to reach their destination, implying that there must have been some danger. Hi, Milady Maciliel.

[Kirinki54]

Originally Posted by ithildin

Was this the same Galdor as the one in 'The Fall of Gondolin'?
I know that was an earlier story and the mythology changed as Tolkien developed it. Is it just another case of the name being reused or is there any posiblility the character was continued into LOTR?

Ithildin *(

Ithildin, Tolkien discussed this issue in notes to the essay Glorfindel (PoME: XIII Last Writings) and it seems he leaned towards Galdor being a Sindarin Elf.

I found this article http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/galdor.html
(but I could not vouch for its accuracy). If the content is reliable, I wonder if it had any bearing on the invention of the name? If true, Tolkien would likely have known about it.

[Michael]

I cannot find any credible source of information which agrees with that site. A lot of Wiccan/New Age material is somewhat idealistic or romantic. The sources for many of their traditions appear to be more recent than is actually realized.

I don't think Tolkien took the name "Galdor" from Old English.

An off-topic aside: I did notice, while searching some Old English lexicons, that "wic" (camp) is the root word for "wicing" (pronounced Wick-ing), and it is given as the Old English cognate for "viking". So, apparently, some linguists think that "to go a-viking" means to "go camping".

How it became associated with violent raiding practices is another story.

[Alvin Eriol]

I must say first of all that I would have a problem with any idea Elrond was planning to simply escape, unless (at least) Sauron regained the Ring. I've long believed Elrond probably had a purpose and a self-imposed mission as a motive for remaining in Middle-Earth as long as he did. And that mission probably was in large part to see to the destruction of the Ruling Ring, should it turn up, and the final overthrow of Sauron, if such is possible. Otherwise IMO indications are he would have departed in weariness and grief soon after the War of the Last Alliance, or perhaps along with Celebrian at the latest. I don't have any particular discrete texts to cite; that's just the impression I have from reading much of the extant material on him and his times, so feel free to sprinkle on the grain of salt.

I would think first of all that there had been routine communications between Mithlond and Imladris as the last remnants of Gil-Galad's ancient kingdom of Lindon, just as a matter of course. Elrond may well have kept Cirdan posted on forecasts of numbers of Elves likely to decide to Depart overseas in any given year, so that Cirdan could plan shipyard production. Furthermore, Elrond and Cirdan were personal friends and companions. You may recall Cirdan accompanied Elrond and Isildur when the latter claimed the Ring.

However various menaces and disquieting signs had been noted in Eriador for some time previously. It may well be that there was an ongoing discussion of how best to preserve Elven access to the Havens in the event of open war or the overt rise of Sauron or some other dark power. The news that the Nine were abroad would certainly have been disquieting. And I agree that Gandalf probably would have confided in Elrond as the investigation proceeded, as he did Aragorn. Furthermore, I would suspect he may have confided in Cirdan as well.

BTW, it was Elrond, not Galdor, who stated that the Valar would not "receive" the Ruling Ring in Aman; it was Middle-Earth's problem.

Bear in mind that the Council of Elrond was a purely ad hoc affair to which no one had been "summoned" from outside Imladris with any indication of the agenda. Galdor might indeed have simply been the senior representative of Mithlond who happened to be present at the time; he presumably was not selected particularly to speak on Cirdan's behalf in the matter of the Ring.

Which brings me to a question about Cirdan. He "saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth," and was probably the senior Eldarin prince remaining in Middle-Earth, remembering the end of the the Great Journey. One would think he would have anticipated such deliberations and come himself, or sent a delegate who was specifically instructed.
Or perhaps not. Perhaps he knew, but having estel as well as vast wisdom and experience, he might have perceived that he had nothing to contribute to the Council it did not have already in Gandalf and Elrond, and was therefore content to stay in Mithlond.

[Maciliel]

I'm with ya Alvin E. While I can't cite chapter and verse in support of my opinion, I've always thought that the Elven ringbearers (and Gandalf as the "wielder" of Cirdan's ring), remained in Middle Earth because it was their responsibility to see through the destruction of the One Ring or perish in the attempt.

Also, a point I find relevant is that the Elves loved Middle Earth and parting for them was bittersweet. The journey to Aman was something that they in fact resisted to some extent, otherwise they would have just all hopped on the one-way ferry--why hang around Middle Earth with all it's problems, when they could head out for the perfect life at any time. The reason was that Middle Earth was fulsome with change--something that on one hand caused them pain, but on the hand, change is the very fact of life and as such is to be held in awe and reverence, and participated in to the fullest extent of their existence. And there were Elves who resisted this call even beyond the passing of the Three, who never made the journey and continued to exist in Middle Earth long into subsequent ages. Some resisted the call to Aman because they had become tainted, but not all of them, and by Tolkien's account (somewhere in Morgoth's Ring--I was reading it last night--Laws & Customs Among the Eldar???), there remained benevolent Elves whose hroa had been consumed, so they had no corporeal existence, but who could appear or make their presence known to mortals should the need arise.

I always thought that Cirdan's mission was overseeing the departures to Aman and thus he did not leave his post. He gave his ring to Gandalf so that it could assist Gandalf in his mission which was to overthrow Sauron.

As Gandalf says, "All we have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given us." And for the bearers of the Elven rings, while they can not see all, or see the unitmate outcome of any particular train of events, their heightened insight/foresight enables them to see potentialities with greater clarity than most, and thus, according to their natures, they decide what to do with the time that has been given to them. Will they spend their time resisting evil? Yes. Will they abandon their posts? No, it is not in their natures.

A related question: Wouldn't Cirdan's ring, Narya, have given some measure of protection to the area surrounding the Haven's, much like Rivendell & Lothlorien, where time is perceived to pass somewhat differently from rest of the world? It strikes me that with his gift of longsight, Cirdan would have known that Narya would be needed, and that it was Gandalf, not Cirdan, who was to be the player in the events. thus he sends Narya off where it was most needed with the person who was most able to weild it. I wonder what the Havens began to fade before Lothlorien and Rivendell? Or if Cirdan's/Narya's power was such that this was delayed until the departure of the Rings from Middle Earth.

[Maciliel]

Oh, and BTW A.E.--I love the addition to your sig line. I too resisted being organized in my youth.

[Alvin Eriol]

Originally Posted by Maciliel

Oh, and BTW A.E.--I love the addition to your sig line. I too resisted being organized in my youth.

Hi Maciliel!

Yeah, when I read that tongue-in-cheek remark by CSL (He was addressing an audience made up partly of officials of youth groups and educators, as well as clergy), a light went on -- I could really relate to that statement, myself!

And I'm glad you concur with my impression. While some of the High Elves erred gravely in defying the Valar and then in desiring to thwart Eru's Law of Time as it applied to them, I always had the impression that many actions and attitutdes on the part of Elf-Lords such as Fingon, Finrod, Gil-Galad, and Galadriel, as well as Elrond, could only be understood in terms of a sense of duty towards Middle-Earth and even --dare I say it -- compassion and even love for Men who stood to benefit from and inherit the fruits of their sometimes-extravagent sacrifices.