Attila's lost? capital?

[eratoh]

Love him or hate him its the 1600th anniversary of his birth. So what
do you get a man who had everything. Google Earth.

Now for about a thousand years there has been a carpathian range of
speculation about his great city that priscus visited in 448 but not a
trace nor a shred.


In 1990 on a business trip i noticed this feature

extent of earthworks
dimensions

perspective
perspective
perspective

it seems to have earthworks 300feet across in some places
it seems to have a 20 foot pallisade on top


it is called romer schanze [roman earthworks] on this map

[classical] reference materials pertaining to size and location

from priscus==========================

P.fr .9 Having crossed rivers mighty indeed—namely the Tisia, Tibisia, and Dricca—we came to the place where long ago Vidigoia, the bravest of the Goths, perished by the treachery of the Sarmatians. Not far from there we reached the village where king Attila was staying, a village, I say, like a very large city, in which we found wooden walls made with smooth planks, their jointure imitating solidity to such an extent that the union of the boards could scarcely be seen by close scrutiny. You might see there dining rooms extended to a liberal circumference and porticoes laid out in all splendor. The area of the courtyard was bounded by a huge circuit wall so that its very size might show it to be the royal palace. This was the house of Attila, the king who held the whole barbarian world, and he preferred this dwelling to the cities captured by him.


from DEATH OF BUDA A Hun Legend [note in this bit that the city was a good distance east of the tisza and astonishingly large]
===============================================

As from the distance one approaches a hive of bees,
he sees a few insects flitting here and there - a
thickening swarm, a darting dance, and then a buzz
and zoom.

The hive booms; in and out the door a thousand
shining bees are crawling back on back. So teem
the swarms of busy men as Attila's town looms up
ahead.

Buda's camp, I think, is nothing compared to these
crowds that come and go and these palaces of Attila
that stretch for miles into the fields, towering
into the heavens.

This is a great range where unbroken stallions run;
a vast field betwixt where warriors train; palace on
corral and palace on corral - it would be hard, indeed,
indeed, to count them all.

At the camp's outer edge stood the servants' tents
with poles of plain fir notched. Farther in, the
tents were finer, the joints fitted smoothly with
a plane.

The palaces of the chieftains are clustered here and
there - so many proud, so many royal homes. Town
within town passes into fields, with green stretches
of distance between.

Women dwell in their secluded towns and rule over
their courts. Krimhilda passes swiftly, if she desires,
over a hanging corridor to her lord Attila's tent.

All this is work of marvellous craft. The awl argues
dead trees into blossoms and new leaves, unlike before,
painted in oil and unfamiliar colors.

The leaves are blood-red, the blossoms gold; branches
twist into hissing dragons where green birds perch
silently, birdlike bells tinkling in their stead.

In the center on a high hill is Attila's tent, the
topmost point shaded by the ancient Turul, tremendous
wings spreading for a flight, and wrought of solid
gold by its maker.

The columns flow to the ceiling, coiling like tendrils
now this way now that, the wood plated with gleaming
gold, and velvet tapestries swelling between.


from gibbon [note the bit where he mentions deceit on huns part leading to confusion over the location]
========================================
he was admitted to the royal presence; but, instead of obtaining a decisive answer, he was compelled to undertake a remote journey towards the North, that Attila might enjoy the proud satisfaction of receiving in the same camp the ambassadors of the Eastern and Western empires. His journey was regulated by the guides, who obliged him to halt, to hasten his march, or to deviate from the common road, as it best suited the convenience of the king. The Romans who traversed the plains of Hungary suppose that they passed several navigable rivers, either in canoes or portable boats; but there is reason to suspect that the winding stream of the Theiss, or Tibiscus, might present itself in different places under different names.


=========================================

some points not in these references
at about 5000acres, according to the maidencastle standard, this should have been a city of 500,000

[seems to be a necropolis ]

the city was called 5waters in one source and cooincidently the damming of the stream by the wall features would have created 5 lakes

the walls of this city cross over the roman wall/road


its not in these official references

cultural memory romania=====================

timis county______________________________________

see cornesti on map_______________________________________


cultural memory hungary====================



what do you think?

[Michael]

Are you saying the site has never been excavated?

There are no references to it at all?

Simply identifying the location of an old ruin and comparing its placement to old literature is not sufficient. Look at all the ruins people have associated with Plato's Atlantis.

It would require some serious study and excavation to see what has survived the ages.

[august]

The numerous links and pictures are very confusing. All I see are some aerial pictures of some landscape, and some quotes that don't seem to have anything to do with each other, other than most reminding me of Brother Maynard's reading from the Book of Armaments...which interestingly, referenced a St. Attila.

Is there any way you could summarize what you are saying or asking in two or three simple sentences?

[Michael]

There is a pattern in the landscape which is indicative of an ancient settlement. The ancient sources describe approximately where Attila's capital was. There seems to be no mention of it in modern archaeological literature.

[august]

Ah. Thanks.

I guess you have to be somewhat familiar with some of the geography referenced to see the similarity. I actually took a class in Roman topography, plus studied that sort of thing in geology a bit, but it seems to be all gone now.

On the other hand, the city's got to be somewhere.

[eratoh]

Originally Posted by Michael

Are you saying the site has never been excavated?

There are no references to it at all?

Simply identifying the location of an old ruin and comparing its placement to old literature is not sufficient. Look at all the ruins people have associated with Plato's Atlantis.

It would require some serious study and excavation to see what has survived the ages.

unbelievable in every way. i've searched and searched for a record of a dig. i've seen 1 picture of some broze age artifact from the correct cornesti but with the walls of this feature seemingly crossing over the roman feature, i can't see a relation.

i've found that there are several villages of the same name currently [cornesti] so the search is complicated often. its old name zsadany now has a hungarian counterpart which claims attilas tomb.

i have contacted many many individuals who you'd think you'd contact but none has replied ever... in many many months.

my question was basically - this feature seems to be unlisted in your records, may i please ask what it is?

maybe i can get an answer out here in internet land. i encourage anyone with the desire and means to investigate it for yourself. i'd love to hear its something simple and stupid rather than to think it is what i say it is and get no answers.

[Michael]

Well, it will help if those URLs are reformatted. I may do that this weekend. As it is, it's very difficult to read this discussion.

[eratoh]

Originally Posted by Michael

Well, it will help if those URLs are reformatted. I may do that this weekend. As it is, it's very difficult to read this discussion.

i've edited them. is there too much in general?

by the way I did not mention attila until i recieved no replies after several months. i felt it was plausible but i swear i have reservations just like you.

it seems that anything roman is spoken for and the dacians aren't claiming anything that large or at least they aren't saying anything. the magyars are mum and the good folks at megalithic.co.uk say they don't know.

[eratoh]

interesting map of dacia...

[Michael]

Well, I'm afraid I cannot associate the last map with the first one. The styles are just way too different for me, and I'm not familiar with the geography of that region at all.

[eratoh]

that map shows the cities of dacia and the roman walls

you can see the wall above where the yellow line is here


i have also been sent the official report on cornesti based on investigations in 1979-1993. the bolded section describes this site... note they state the size as 578ha instead of about 2000ha so they did not see see the entire site and they make no attempt to identify it [pre dacian?].
================================================== =====
Cornesti (comuna Ortisoara, judetul Timis)

1. Vestigii preistorice.

a) Într-o cariera de nisip de la marginea satului s-au descoperit „oase de mamut". Astfel de fosile s-au descoperit si mai târziu de secolul XIX.

b) Punctul Jadani-Jugosloveni.

Statiunea neolitica din acest punct se afla la marginea vestica a localitatii, de o parte si de alta a drumului unde s-au asezat refugiatii veniti din Iugoslavia în perioada interbelica. Situl a fost locuit în vremea culturii Bucovat, Vinca C si Tiszapolgár.

Tot aici se semnaleaza si materiale ceramice Cotofeni.

c) Punctul Ferma Reiter.

Materialele arheologice de aici apartin culturii Vinca, faza C.

d) Punctul Pusta sau Râtu cu Peri.

Aici s-a semnalat ceramica apartinând culturii Vatina.

e) Se mentioneaza descoperirea, în hotarul satului (Jadani), a unui depozit format din opt bratari de aur dintre care sase din placa si doua din sârma rasucita, datat în seria Cincu-Suseni (Br D-Ha A1).

f) Punctul Valea Lacului.

La vest de acest punct si de Dealul Cornet s-au descoperit, la aratura, fragmente ceramice.

g) La Jadani s-a descoperit un depozit de bronzuri din seria Cincu-Suseni (Ha A1).

2. Situri arheologice cu stratigrafie complexa.

a) Punctul Dealul Cornet.

În acest punct se afla o mare asezare fortificata, numita de localnici si Iarc, de foarte mari dimensiuni cu mai multe niveluri de folosire în epoca bronzului si cea a fierului. Fortificatia are mai multe valuri (trei incinte concentrice, dupa unii autori patru) intersectate de valea Pistrui (Pistruia), spre sud, care la est de sat îsi schimba numele în Valea Luciului, Lacului sau Vâna Nerat. Spre nord, fortificatia este marginita de Valea Caraniului. Suprafata III si cea mai mare are 578 ha.
Între alte materiale arheologice s-a descoperit si o dalta de cupru, dar si materiale ceramice reprezentând epoca de trecere de la cultura Tiszapolgár la Bodrogkeresztúr.

Materialele arheologice de epoca bronzului de aici se încadreaza în partea timpurie si mijlocie a perioadei.

Tot aici s-au descoperit materiale ceramice care pot duce datarea fortificatiei pâna la sfârsitul epocii bronzului si, poate, chiar în perioada hallstattiana.

Dintr-o descoperire întâmplatoare provine un topor de fier care poate fi încadrat în Hallstatt.

În incinta s-au descoperit si fragmente ceramice dacice.

Unii cercetatori considera fortificatia un ring avar.

Ortansa Radu aminteste aici si ceramica medievala târzie.

3. Vestigii dacice.

a) În hotarul localitatii sunt amintite fragmente ceramice dacice.

4. Vestigii daco-romane.

a) La N de localitate, în imediata apropiere a fortificatiei preistorice (Iarcurilor) se afla o asezare de secolele IV-V d.Chr.

5. Movile de pamânt.

a) Pe traseul exterior al fortificatiei de pamânt din punctul Dealul Cornet este semnalata o movila de pamânt, plasata la 1,1 km nord de sat, cu dimensiunile de 15 m diametru si 1,5-2 m înaltime. Este posibil sa fie construita dupa terminarea ridicarii incintei deoarece se afla pe coama acesteia.

6. Descoperiri monetare.

a) La sfârsitul secolului XIX s-a descoperit trei denari, dintre care doi imperiali si unul republican.

b) Cam tot în acelasi timp s-au descoperit doua monede de secolul XVII care pot face parte dintr-un tezaur.

c) Catre sfârsitul secolului XX s-a descoperit la Cornesti un tezaur monetar format din taleri austrieci de argint.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>poor translation
Prehistoric vestiges.
Într-o career from the brim of shadowless village of the bones of mammothes". Astfel of shadowless still more late fossils of the century XIX.
B) Punctul Jadani-jugosloveni.
Statiunea neolitica from this point found out to the brim vestica locality, aside and of alta the road seated waves the refugees come from The Jugoslavia in the period interbelica. Were indwelled the weather of the culture Bucovat, Vinca C and Tiszapolgár.
All here semnaleaza and material ceramice Cotofeni.
C) Punctul Ferma Reiter.
The archaeological here materials belong to the culture Vinca, the phase C.
D) Punctul Pusta or Râtu with Peri.
Here he pointed out the pottery belonging to The culture Vinca.
E) mentioneaza bare, in the boundary of the village( of a Jadani warehouse the format from eight golden armlets among six which from the plate and doua from the wire rasucita, gived seriatim Cincu-suseni( Br D-ha A1).
charm) Punctul Valea Lacului.
West of this point and of Dealul Cornet they bared, to aratura, fragments ceramice.
G) La Jadani he bared an warehouses of brass from the series Cincu-suseni( Ha A1).
2. situri archaeological with stratigraphy complexa.

In this point found out a big placement fortificata, named by natives Iarc, of very big sizes with the many ages of use in the age of the bronze and iron. Fortificatia has else many walls( three concentric enclosures, some authors say four) intersections with valley Pistrui( Pistruia), meridionally, I carry on the east of village îsi change the name in Valea Luciului, Lacului or Vâna Nerat. Northwards, fortificatia is bordering on Caraniului valley. The surface III and eldest has 578ha.


Between another material archaeological shadowless the si a chisel cupriferous, but and material ceramice presenting the age from the culture Tiszapolgár to Bodrogkeresztúr.
The archaeological materials of the age of here brass încadreaza in the early part the middling si of the period.
All here they bared material ceramice wagons can bear the dating Dacice.
4. Vestiges Daco.
La of locality, in imediata approach fortificatiei prehistoric( Iarcurilor) found out a placement of the centuries IV d. Chr.
5. Knolls Of earthes.
Pe the exterior route of fortificatiei of earth from the point Dealul Cornet is semnalata a knoll of earth, plasata to 1, km north of village, with the sizes of 15 m diameter and 1, 5-2 m height. Is likely to is builded after the completion lift incintei because found out on this ridge.
6. Bare monetary.
La sfârsitul the century XIX he bared three nãri, among two which imperial the si one republican.
B) Cam all in the same time they bared doua monede of the century XVII wagons can do the part dintr the treasure.
C) Catre sfârsitul the century XX he bared to Cornesti a monetary treasure format from Austrian argentic dishes.

[august]

So do you live anywhere near there? And is the land on public or private property? What's there now? What I'm getting at is... you should go explore the site!

[eratoh]

i am in canada. i have friends near there but they grew up in cornesti.

the land is public. [commune]
the application to dig is at http://www.cimec.ro

they won't talk to you if you don't have credentials it seems maybe or not to me at least. every piece of ground survey equipment {including metal detectors} in the country must be registered or else.

then of course there is the ethnic turmoil you'll cause.

i'd love to go otherwise.

[august]

You should do a little research - find the biggest University close to the site, and simply send all this to the chair of the Classics Dept. To start with, one wouldn't even need to dig, or even use any equipment. If nothing was ever built on the site, there should be plenty of stuff still visible, if perhaps overgrown by weeds and vines and so forth. It would make for a fine Saturday afternoon hike and sightseeing/exploration/picnic adventure for some students.

[eratoh]

i think i've researched it out and only some good ole ground penetrating radar is left before some diggin.

i've been trying to get Luca Mori to take a drive some weekend and walk over it

[Michael]

It's a fascinating subject.

I suppose if you wait long enough, Google will come out with Google Earth Radar or something.

[eratoh]

there was a little line in there about it being an avar ring. i assure you it would be the great great grand daddy avar ring, so maybe the Avar capital city Ring? Avar capital city Ring = Attilas capital... you can find that in google

[eratoh]

neato
http://216.109.132.28/over.jpg

[Dorogostaisky]

Some comments:
the walls of this city cross over the roman road- the road it's not roman it's a middle age one. If you will follow to south this road you will find a rectangular fortress
45* 51'21.77 N; 21* 13'06.65E and a second one two the North
45* 58'28.34 N; 21* 15'55.74E.
Even inside the rings near the Valea Lacului and this road we have find feudal traces(IX-XII).
PLease contact me directly leonard.dorogostaisky@alcatel.ro.

[eratoh]

so you're are suggesting middle ages? hmmm. thats a little crazier than attila. so what race of peoples have been magnificently under represented up till this point? you're not saying magyar are you? i haven't read about anyone whom you might think could muster the manpower to build such a thing any later than the avars and they just reoccupied attilas stan.

the road you speak of is 80ish feet in cross section [as are roman walls which is what i mean to say...wall not road] and passes by the fortress on the southend and proceeds on to timisoara as it should. just before your fortress, the known and i assume undisputed roman wall which veers northeast joins with this road [wall] seemingly fitting this map http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...donia_1849.jpg to a tee.

according to the official report there is as much chance its avar as feudal do you disagree or do you have more information you can link to. it needn't be in english.