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#1
February 10th, 2007, 12:11 AM
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Attempts at ordering the years
I've been reading through many Witch World books by ordering them through my local library. I've been trying to form some coherent timeline out of things (though I know this has been attempted before). At this time I'm concentrating on the year system used in the Dales and Arvon in addition to the Alizon years mentioned in Magestone and the Varnian years mentioned in "Port of Dead Ships". In the afterword of Mary H. Schaub's story, "Night Hound's Moon", she mentions having seen the Year of the Night Hound in the calendar, which seems to be a reference to the GURPS calendar.
I have now edited the list with all the year names I could find. Some of the events are a bit odd since some books mention events taking place farther into the future while others (particularly Magestone and Warding) seem to indicate all book events happened before them. I'm almost positive there's no way to resolve this logically. Years with astericks are mentioned in some story. The only one not included is Mereth's birth year since Magestone gives conflicting estimates on when it might be. -------------------------------------- circa 5758 Founding Years of Varn Year of the Betrayal Year of the ??? Shorrosh and Elsenar bring in the Alizonders from their home world. Elsenar weds lady Kylanina. Alizon City created Lormt erected. The First Turning. Shorrosh reveals himself as a Dark Adept and Elsenar seals the Gate to the Alizonder home world with Shorrosh trapped on the other side. The Master Gate is attempted at Lormt but fails. Elsenar attempts a postern to Arvon but it is first broken by the energies of the failed Master Gate, then later rerouted by the Dark Adept Narvok. Elsenar is subsequently trapped, severed spirit from body, until released by Kasarian. circa 6358 circa 600 Year of the Cloven Hoof* The first Dalesmen come to High Hallack through their own Gate. They are caused to forget why they left their homeworld, however. Events of Horn Crown take place. 6768 1010 Year of the Serpent King Kerovan born; Sif born 6769 1011 Year of the Ringed Dove Kerovan's sister Lisana is born 6770 1012 Year of the Bicorn Joisan born 6771 1013 Year of the Salamander* Almondia and Truan arrive in Wark, High Hallack; Alys born 6772 1014 Year of the Sea Serpent* Elyn and Elys born 6773 1015 Year of the Pronghorn* Coughing sickness kills two of Lorcan's siblings 6774 1016 Year of the Kestral 6775 1017 Year of the Pard* Lorcan born 6776 1018 Year of the Yellow Dwarf* 6777 1019 Year of the Mandrake 6778 1020 Year of the Spitting Toad* Kerovan (10) and Joisan (8) ax-wed 6779 1021 Year of the Winged Bull* According to Port of Dead Ships shortly before Kolder invade Gorm. 6780 1022 Year of the Horned Worm According to The Magestone the Kolder invade Gorm (p.154) 6781 1023 Year of the Gorgon 6782 1024 Year of the Barrow-Wight 6783 1025 Year of the Cameoleopard Simon Tregarth may enter the Witch World; Sulcarkeep may fall to Kolder forces; events similar to those of Port of Dead Ships take place in Varn. 6784 1026 Year of the Crowned Swan* The Horning probably takes place late this year or early the next year. -Witch World Josian is 14. -The Crystal Gryphon 6785 1027 Year of the Moss Wife* Spies of Alizon begin snooping around the Dales -The Crystal Gryphon; Lorcan 10; Simon Tregarth and Jaelithe probably married late this year or early the next; Ciara is 9 or 10, depending on whether the Horning is this year or last year; Una of Seakeep born. 6786 1028 Year of the Fire Troll* War in Dales begins: The Crystal Gryphon, Dragon Scale Silver; Events of Web of the Witch World may take place; Kasarian is 5 or is born (In Magestone Kasarian mentions being five when the war with the Dales began, but he is 22 at the time of the Turning. Since the Tregarth triples are 21 at the time of the Turning he cannot be more than a year older than them. Either he is born in this year or he is 27 years old at the time of the Turning). 6787 1029 Year of the Leopard* Dales make their first, small victories; Gillan brought over on an Alizon vessel for unknown reasons; Kyllan Tregarth probably born on the last day of the year. 6788 1030 Year of the Sword Smith Kemoc and Kaththea Tregarth may be born the first day of the year; Pagar strong enough to take on his rivals by the end of the year; Sif (20) returns to Ulys to rescue Alys (17). 6789 1031 Year of the Raven* Four months into the year Pagar proclaimed Duke of Karsten; In the summer of this year Pagar is border raiding against Estcarp. In retaliation Hostovrul of the Sulcar leads twenty ships to attack Karsten, even attacking the city of Kars. This attack leaves Pagar’s hold on Karsten weakened so that shortly after Pagar’s half-brother challenges his rule. 6790 1032 Year of the Night Hound* 6791 1033 Year of the Gryphon* Covenant made with the Were Riders in the spring of this year. See: Gryphon in Glory, Year of the Unicorn, Dragon Scale Silver (Dragon Scale Silver has Jervon reporting the joining by the wereriders to Elys while Gryphon in Glory has them present at the parley attempt by Kerovan). 6792 1034 Year of the Fire Drake* Tirath may have met Herwydin the fens; Khemrys may be born. 6793 1035 Year of the Hornet* Alizon forces are beaten; Pagar has defeated his half brother and other forces; Kasarian is 12; Lord Baron Facellion is overthrown and killed, Mallandor is placed as Lord Baron. Hertha raped by Daleman and seeks out The Toads of Grimmerdale. 6794 1036 Year of the Unicorn* Twelve and one brides are given to the Were Riders as payment in the Great Bargain; Events of Year of the Unicorn take place; Gillan believes herself to be no older than 20. Hertha's baby girl Elfanor born & Hertha seals the circle of the Toads in Changeling. Kerovan & Josian in Arvon -Gryphon's Eyrie. Ysmay marries Hylle in High Hallack and journeys to Quayth where she frees Broc and Yaal; Hylle is overthrown on Midwinter Day -"Amber out of Quayth". 6795 1037 Year of the Red Boar* Kethan and Aylinn born and switched at the Shrine of Gunnora; Hyana born to Kerovan and Joisan. 6796 1038 Year of the Hippogriff* Eydryth born, Alon may also be born. 6797 1039 Year of the Roc According to "The Sword Seller" Fyndale fair is resumed this year. 6798 1040 Year of the Basilisk 6799 1041 Year of the Black Adder Kyllan, Kemoc and Kaththea are 12. Kyllan and Kemoc go on their first foray. The three rescue a Witch in need from Karstinian forces. 6800 1042 Year of the Frost Giant The Year the GURPS timeline places Simond's birth. "Sand Sister" mentions Simond as does Warding. 6801 1043 Year of the Fox Maiden Kethan (6) goes to the Youth's Tower; Firdun born; Simon Tregarth vanishes at sea while exploring islands suspected of Kolder activity. Jaelithe moves to Estford and shuts herself up for months. When she emerges she calls her children to her and uses them to help her find Simon. Shortly after this she rides out and vanishes as well. She made Koris swear on Volt's Axe to protect her children from the wiles of the Counsel. 6803 1044 Year of the Snow Cat 6802 1045 Year of the Horned Hunter* Mereth is traveling to Lormt over sea. [In The Magestone the Turning is mentioned as having taken place two years prior (p.5). Given that the Tregarth Triplets must be 21 in the year of the turning, and that their birth cannot take place until after Web of the Witch World, and that the closing of the Kolder Gate (and cutting off of the supplies for the Alizon invasion) cannot happen before the end of the Year of the Fire Troll or beginning of the Year of the Leopard, it seems more likely that Mereth should be traveling in the Year of the Horned Cat.] 6803 1046 Year of the Lamia* Kaththea (17) taken by the Witches, Koris wounded and can no longer wield Volt’s Axe; in "Were-flight" this is the Year of the Sphinx. 6804 1047 Year of the Chimera* 6805 1048 Year of the Harpy* Elys and the unborn Trevon hidden by forces of the Dark; Eydryth 10, Firdun 5; Trevon would have been born; Kemoc (19) wounded and goes to Lormt. 6806 1049 Year of the Orc* Khemrys is probably 18 (15 would be more in keeping with the known timeline of the war. Since her father is a Wererider he would not likely have met her mother before the Year of the Gryphon. If she is 18 she would have to have been born in 1031, at least two years prior to the Year of the Gryphon by this counting). 6807 1050 Year of the Kobald* Year of the Second Turning Pagar tries to invade Estcarp; Kyllan and Kemoc rescue Kaththea and all three escape to Escore; according to The Magestone Kasarian is 22; According to "Spider Silk" Dairene is saved from the sea aged 6 or 7. 6808 1051 Year of the Werewolf* Post-Turning Year 1 Kethan (14) and Thaney are betrothed and would be married except for year name; Eydryth is 13, Alon may also be 13; Monso is foaled; Jervon Power blasted at the Cyclops scry stone; Alon comes to Escore. 6809 1052 Year of the Horned Cat* Post-Turning Year 2 Alon may be adopted by Hilarion and Kaththea this year; Elona and Keris may be born to Kyllan and Dahaun; Events of "To Rebuild the Eyrie" may take place early this year or late the previous year; Eirran 18; Jenys ("Mouse") born this year (The birth of Mouse here would be the only way she could take part in Warding). 6810 1053 Post-Turning Year 3 Year of the Manticore "Port of Dead Ships" may take place; Eleeri may enter the Witch World. [Although The Key of the Keplian says it is over thirty years since the Turning. This is not consistent with the time that The Warding of the Witch World is placed. Of course, this year isn't over thirty years since the Horning, either, but since Eleeri goes from being almost sixteen to nearly twenty-one in the book, and she and the Keplains are in Warding, she must arrive at least five years prior to the events of Warding.] 6811 1054 Year of the Weld Post-turning Year 4 The first child of Hilarion and Kaththea may be born. [Songsmith mentions that Hilarion and Kaththea have two children two years apart: "several years after I [Alon] came to live with them [Hilarion and Kaththea] they had a child of their own…then, two years later, another" pp. 124-125. Alon goes on to mention that he was nearly full grown at the time of the second birthing and so left. If he means it's been several yeas before the second birth this is roughly accurate. If he means several years before the first birth this is almost impossible to reconcile with the timeline.] 6812 1055 Year of the Hydra Post-Turning Year 5 "Sand Sister" may take place. 6813 1056 Year of the Triton Post-Turning Year 6 The second child of Hilarion and Kaththea may be born; Sulcar visit Rannock six years after the Year of the Kobold. 6814 1057 Year of the Centaur Post-Turning Year 7 Eydryth is 19; events of Songsmith take place; the events of "Seakeep" likely take place; Ingvarna teaches Dairine to "see" with her fingers the year after Ortis' visit: This would be 30 or 31 years from the Horning, depending on when it took place. [Though both Songsmith and Key of the Keplian are supposed to take place 30 years after the Turning, 30 years after the Horning actually works out much better timeline-wise.] 6815 1058 Year of the Opinicus Post-Turning Year 8 The events of "Falcon Hope" take place; According to "Spider Silk" Dairine passes into "young womanhood" (possibly 14 or 15), Ingvarna dies, Captain Ortis returns, Dairine is taken to Usurt, learns to weave better, regains her sight - this year is called the Year of the Weldworm there.:::Events of "Falcon Magic" take place this year.; Eleeri, Jerrany, and Mayrin rescue Romar from the Dark Tower. The Keplian are now able to stand for the Light again. The Dark Tower may be destroyed. 6816 1059 Year of the Sumurgh [This is likely a misspelling of the word 'Simurgh', a benevolent female avian in Persian mythology.] Post-Turning Year 9 This may be the year that the events of The Warding of the Witch World take place. There is a reference to the events in "Falcon Hope": "Lately also that invasion overseas made by strange seagoing race of fanatics whom only the skill, blood, and courage of Falconers and Dalesmen together had stopped." (pg 8) 6817 1060 Year of the Remorhaz Post-Turning Year 10 6818 1061 Year of the Elder Tree Post-Turning Year 11 6819 1062 Year of the Wild Hunt 6820 1063 Year of the Troll-Dame 6821 1064 Year of the Silversmith 6822 1065 Year of the Bitter Herb 6823 1066 Year of the Alfar Last year mentioned in GURPS 6824 1067 Year of the ??? 6825 1068 Year of the ??? 6826 1069 Year of the ??? 6827 1070 Year of the ??? 6828 1071 Year of the ??? 6829 1072 Year of the ??? 6830 1073 Year of the ??? 6831 1074 Year of the ??? 6832 1075 Year of the ??? 6833 1076 Year of the ??? 6834 1077 Year of the ??? 6835 1078 Year of the ??? 6836 1079 Year of the ??? 6837 1080 Year of the ??? Thirty years after the Turning. Events of The Key of the Keplian take place; The events of Songsmith are also supposed to occur this year. --------------------- Prior Timeline attempt: -1 Before Betrayal/Year of the: Lormt built. Year of the Betrayal/Year of the: Elsenar abolishes the Gate to the Alizonder home world, banishing Shorrosh. Eastern Mountains moved in First Turning. ???Estcarp established. Year of the Cloven Hoof: C.650 since Betrayal Dale folk come to High Hallack through Gate. -Horn Crown Year of the C.777 since Betrayal Barbarians overtake Karsten. Year of the C.910 since Betrayal Sulcar establish Sulcarkeep. Year of the C.928 since Betrayal Falconers found the Eyrie. Year of the Blue-horned Ram: 977 since Betrayal -- Mereth born -Magestone Year of the Serpent King: 1013 since Betrayal --Birth of Kerovan, son of Ulric, Lord of Ulmsdale -Crystal Gryphon Year of the Ringed Dove: 1014 since Betrayal Year of the Salamander: 1015 since Betrayal --Trumand and Almondia arrive in Wark from Estcarp. -“Dragon Scale Silver” --Birth of Joisan, daughter of the lord of Ithdale. -Crystal Gryphon Year of the Sea Serpent: 1016 since Betrayal --Elyn, Elys born to Trumand and Almondia – Almondia dies four days after birthing. -“Dragon Scale Silver” Year of the Fire Arrow: 1017 since Betrayal --Kolder invade Gorm Year of the Bicorn: 1018 since Betrayal --Yvian becomes Duke of Karsten. Year of the Hill Giant: 1019 since Betrayal Year of the Sea Calf: 1020 since Betrayal Year of the Kestrel: 1021 since Betrayal Year of the Yellow Dwarf: 1022 since Betrayal Year of the Mandrake: 1023 since Betrayal Year of the Spitting Toad: 1024 since Betrayal -- Kerovan and Joisan axe-wed -Crystal Gryphon --Gillian may have been born Year of the Winged Bull: 1025 since Betrayal Year of the Horned Worm: 1026 since Betrayal --Kasarian of Alizon is born. -Magestone Year of the Gorgon: 1027 since Betrayal Year of the Barrow-Wright: 1028 since Betrayal --Simon Tregarth arrives in the Witch World via a Gate from Earth. -Witch World --Loyse of Verlaine is axe-wed to Duke Yvian. -Witch World --Sulcarkeep is destroyed. -Witch World --Old Race is Thrice-Horned in Karsten. -Witch World Year of the Cameleopard: 1029 since Betrayal --Simon Tregarth weds Jaelithe the Witch. --Kyllan born (last day of year) -Three against the Witch World Year of the Crowned Swan: 1030 since Betrayal --Kemoc, Kaththea born (first day of year) -Three against the Witch World Year of the Fire Troll: 1031 since Betrayal --Koris of Gorm and Loyse of Verlaine married in Estcarp. --Alizon begins war on Dales. -Crystal Gryphon, Magestone, “Dragon Scale Silver” --Duke Yvian of Kars dies; Simon and Loyse captured in Tor Moor and turned over to Koldar; Simon and Jaelithe destroy the Koldar Gate. -Web of the Witch World Year of the Moss Wife: 1032 since Betrayal --Four months into new year Pagar is proclaimed Duke of Karsten. -Three against the Witch World Year of the Weldworm: 1033 since Betrayal --Hostovrul raids Karsten with 20 ships. -Three against the Witch World Year of the Sword Smith: 1034 since Betrayal Year of the Leopard: 1035 since Betrayal --Insurrection by Pagar’s half-brother. -Three against the Witch World --Freeza and Gilian reach Abby Norstead. Year of the Raven: 1036 since Betrayal --Elys and Jervon dispel Ingaret’s Curse. -“Dragon Scale Silver” Year of the Night Hound: 1037 since Betrayal Year of the Gryphon: 1038 since Betrayal --Battle of Ford of Ingra – Ithdale, Ulmsdale taken. --Kerovan and Joisan enter Arvon. Year of the Firedrake: 1039 since Betrayal --Battle of Ruther’s Pass: Alizon stops supplying its oversea forces. --Insurrection quashed, Pagar rules Karsten unopposed. Year of the Hornet: 1040 since Betrayal --War in Dales ends. Year of the Unicorn: 1041 since Betrayal --Kyllan and Kemoc and ride in their first foray. -Three against the Witch World --Were Riders take their Brides. -Year of the Unicorn --Kerovan (21) and Joisan (19) find Kar Guardwyn -Gryphon’s Eyrie Year of the Red Boar: 1042 since Betrayal --Hyana born. -Songsmith -- Kethan and Aylinn were born in this year and switched by Ursilla at Gunnora’s Shrine. -Jargoon Pard Year of the Fox Maiden: 1043 since Betrayal --Simon Tregarth disappears at sea. -Three against the Witch World Year of the Phoenix: 1044 since Betrayal --Jaelithe follows Simon to the Machine World. -Three against the Witch World Year of the Hippogriff: 1045 since Betrayal --Eydryth born in the month of the Gyrfalcon. Alon may also have been born this year. -Songsmith Year of the Roc: 1046 since Betrayal --Kaththea taken by Witches for training. -Three against the Witch World Year of the Basilisk: 1047 since Betrayal -- Koris returns Volt’s Axe. -Three against the Witch World Year of the Black Adder: 1048 since Betrayal --Kemoc wounded and goes to Lormt. -Three against the Witch World Year of the Frost Giant: 1049 since Betrayal Year of the Kobold: 1050 since Betrayal --Year of the Second Turning. --Kyllan, Kemoc, and Kaththea flee to Escore. -Three against the Witch World --Kyllan Tregarth and Dahaun wed. --Firdun born. -Songsmith Year of the Snow Cat: 1051 since Betrayal 1 Year after Turning --Kyllan Tregarth returns to Estcarp to recruit settlers for Escore. -Three against the Witch World --Kaththea Tregarth is lured away to the Dark Tower by adapt Dinzel and later rescued by Kemoc though she looses all her Power. -Warlock of the Witch World --Elona, Keris born to Kyllan Tregarth and Dahaun -Songsmith --Kemoc and Orsya of the Krogan are married. --Kaththea is lost in an avalanche while traveling from Escore to Estcarp. She is taken by a Vuspell to a Vuspell camp and then deeper into Escore. -Sorceress of the Witch World --Witches in training abducted by Alizon, last of the Koldar perish. -Magestone, “Falcon Magic” (this does not work chronologically since Eirran and Yareth's daughter was six when she was taken in for Witch training but the events of "To Build an Eyrie", which introduce Eirran and Yareth, take place much later - at the very least in this year or the next since Yareth was looking to rebuild the Eyrie after its destruction in the Turning). Year of the Horned Hunter: 1052 since Betrayal 2 Years after Turning --Wise Woman Utta of the Vuspall apprentices Kaththea and helps her reawaken her Power. --After a Sea Raider attack Kaththea finds the Citadel of Hilarion and a Gate into the Machine World where she rescues the adept Hilarion and finds her parents Simon and Jaelithe. -Sorceress of the Witch World --Mereth goes to Lormt -Magestone Year of the Lamia: 1053 since Betrayal 3 Years after Turning --Kaththea, Simon, and Jaelithe Tregarth along with the adept Hilarion return to the Witch World. -Sorceress of the Witch World --Elsenar and the Mage Stone leave the Witch World. -Magestone -- Kaththea Tregarth and Hilarion are wed. Year of the Harpy: 1054 since Betrayal 4 Years after Turning --Kelsie McBlair enters the Witch World -The Gate of the Cat Year of the Orc: 1055 since Betrayal 5 Years after Turning --Eydryth’s mother, Elys, is taken by the Dark with her unborn son Trevon. -Songsmith Year of the Werewolf: 1056 since Betrayal 6 Years after Turning --Monso, the Torgian/Keplain born. Jervon power-blasted. -Songsmith --Kethan goes from childhood to young adulthood. He would have been married but the year-name was not auspicious so it was postponed until the next year. -Jargoon Pard Year of the Horned Cat: 1057 since Betrayal 7 Years after Turning --Events of “Ware Hawk” take place --Gate of Laquit discovered and cleansed. -“Port of Dead Ships” Year of the Manticore: 1058 since Betrayal 8 Years after Turning --Una of Seakeep hires the band of Falconer’s under Tarlach’s command to fend her Dale against Ogin of Ravenfield. It was in this year that the spirit Una died, sealing a Gate leading to a Dark realm. - "Seakeep" Year of the Weld: 1059 since Betrayal 9 Years after Turning --First child of Kaththea and Hilarion born. -Songsmith -- Attempted invasion from otherworld Sultanites on Seakeep. After the invaders are defeated the Falconers begin establishing a new Eyrie in High Hallack, in the dales of Ravenfield and Seakeep. Tarlach and Una are married. -“Falcon Hope” Year of the Hydra: 1060 since Betrayal 10 Years after Turning Year of the Triton: 1061 since Betrayal 11 Years after Turning -- Second child of Kaththea and Hilarion born. -Songsmith Year of the Centaur: 1062 since Betrayal 12 Years after Turning Year of the Opinacus: 1063 since Betrayal 13 Years after Turning -- Jervon restored, Elys found, Trevor born. -Songsmith Year of the Sumurgh: 1064 since Betrayal 14 Years after Turning Year of the Remorhaz: 1065 since Betrayal 15 Years after Turning --“To Build an Eyrie” may take place Year of the Elder Tree: 1066 since Betrayal 16 Years after Turning Year of the Wild Huntsman: 1067 since Betrayal 17 Years after Turning Year of the Troll-Dame: 1068 since Betrayal 18 Years after Turning Year of the Silversmith: 1069 since Betrayal 19 Years after Turning Year of the Bitter Herb: 1070 since Betrayal 20 Years after Turning Year of the Alfar: 1071 since Betrayal 21 Years after Turning Thoughts? Suggestions? Last edited by Indagare : June 8th, 2010 at 10:05 AM. 
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#2
February 10th, 2007, 12:41 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
I haven't looked at it for a good while, butI vaguly recall some kind of timeline in the GURPS Witch world gaming module. Later Kind folks--Paul
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Frontiers of any type, physical or mental are but a challenge to our breed. Nothing can stop th questing of man, not even man. If we will it, not only the wonders of space, but the very stars are ours
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#4
February 11th, 2007, 06:13 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
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I would greatly appreciate it. My e-mail is [Click on Name of Registered User - this will populate a hidden email - Irene] Last edited by Irene : September 17th, 2008 at 05:22 AM.
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#5
September 17th, 2008, 12:04 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
After a long time being out of things I've finally returned and updated this section. I read through all of the Witch World related books. I have notes, though I seem to have lost them. Where I could I listed stories that the years are mentioned in. In other places I have guessed based on in-text clues. I also used the GURPS information catsrule1 gave me to help. Some of this information is unreconciled due to the fact that both Magestone and Warding are apparently meant to take place after all the stories, but I'm interested to see what people think of my efforts.
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#6
September 17th, 2008, 05:30 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
I don't think that Andre Norton intended there to be a calendar. I think that as she wrote the original books, she invented names. The original books were all solo books, and written in chronological order.
As books with different characters, in different lands of the Witch World, and by different co-authors were added, the time line became less easily followed. You should think of this as different calendars created by different peoples (In our own world: Chinese, Roman, Aztec, Hebrew and other calendars are all in different years.) It would be nice to get this all straight, but I always read the books in the order that they were written. I continue to feel that Andre Norton wrote her books the way a person would walk through life. Example from a recent vacation of mine; "I sit, as a passenger, in the car as it drives down that long and winding road. The vistas ahead being beautiful, and the view to the side of the car being so steep as to make me not want to look there." Andre finally had to allow the map makers to try to put everything on paper. She probably had to insist on the maps (and the time lines) as being very large to allow for people who had never left their Dale, and for a time line to allow for the next generation.
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Irene Last edited by Irene : January 15th, 2009 at 06:13 AM.
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#7
September 17th, 2008, 10:55 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
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Well I understand this may not be exactly what she had in mind. I'm not so caught up with fantasy to not know the books were likely meant to be read as they were written with possibly different calendars along the way. I guess it just bugs me because I like things to be internally consistent when I read series. This is meant to be used as a guide anyway, but I am hoping other people who have more of the books than I do might be able to help me piece things together better. Last edited by Indagare : September 17th, 2008 at 11:21 AM.
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#8
September 17th, 2008, 01:58 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
Well, I do have all of the books, but I never paid much attention to the "names" of the years, except to be gently amused with the naming.
I'm not arguing here, just letting my mind wander.... I'm sure that you noticed that never once is there given a reason for the naming. If the "year of the unicorn" is derived from a Star constellation called "the unicorn" being bright in the sky on the longest night, then perhaps people around the world, might have the same name for the year. But if people in the world don't all speak the same language (and my memory says that they don't), why would they have the same name for a year or a star constellation? Is there a conclave of Year namers? Or somewhere a mage or a ruler decrees the name: "I, Queen Irene, Queen of Peace, declare this year to be the "Year of the Bunny" <grin> I would expect the Hounds of Alizon to name their years after different types of dogs, wolves, foxes and animals that they hunted. I expect the people of the Dales would have tended to name their years after pastural animals like sheep, cows, chickens, rabbits and dogs (or would if they didn't have a Witch of Escarp living in their town). The Falconeers might name their years after birds of prey, and the prey animals. I suppose I like a little mystery in my reading. I take pleasure in the sound of the name, "Year of the Snow Leopard" rather than looking to fit everything into a unified theory, or timeline.
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Irene
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#9
September 17th, 2008, 02:18 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
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Actually as far as I can determine all of the years with names are from High Hallack. In fact I seem to recall (though I could be mistaken) that the names really are determined by some august body in the Dales (I believe the Dames of the Flame, but I could be mistaken). It is mentioned in Magestone that the Alizonders number their years from the Betrayal (when Elsenar abolished the Gate to the Alizonder home world, thus also banishing Shorrosh a Dark Adept). How other races count the years (or if they do) is not specifically mentioned anywhere I can find, though the Old Race of Arvon seems to have adopted or partially adopted the Dales naming for years. I suppose I am something of a chronicler and so while I too like a little mystery I also like to try and find answers. I also enjoy writing fan fiction, which is made much easier when most facts are known.
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#10
September 18th, 2008, 09:44 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
I believe there is a passage in one of the books Andre wrote herself which explained that the year names were decided through augury, possibly Year of the Unicorn.
I cannot think of a story off the top of my head where the year names were significant for Estcarpian characters who had not crossed over to the Dales.
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Xenite.Org - Science Fiction and Fantasy Tolkien Studies on the Web Michael-Martinez.com
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#11
September 18th, 2008, 11:11 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
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*nods* That's what I was thinking. I have Year of the Unicorn and can reread it, but it could be in Jargoon Pard which I don't have... I'm fairly sure they aren't important to Estcarpians in general but they seem to be important to those of Arvon. Folks on the Estcarp side tend to mark things by the Turning if they mark things at all.
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#12
September 20th, 2008, 11:20 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
I have Jargoon Pard somewhere so if you cannot find the reference in Year of the Unicorn I'll be glad to look it up for you (may take me a couple of days to do it).
I know Irene and Paul have all the books, but I believe they encase their books in super-hardened steel-reinforced concrete silos guarded by armored divisions. They may no longer have the security clearances to look at their books.
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Xenite.Org - Science Fiction and Fantasy Tolkien Studies on the Web Michael-Martinez.com
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#13
September 21st, 2008, 11:25 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
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It's not in Year of the Unicorn. I'm hoping it may be in Jargoon Pard since I recall it explained some other things too, like the various colors of magic and their meaning. Otherwise it could be in any of the High Hallack-saga books...
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#14
September 22nd, 2008, 07:21 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
I do not have things in a concrete bunker..... OK, only the Hard covers.
Actually, everything is really easy to access, for the Hard Cover firsts and my reading copies are where I can see them. It's the paper firsts that are stored two deep in a book case, and the million of later printings, foreign languages & pretty paper covers, that are stored properly, just not in any easy-to-find method. [Right now the horizontal storage of the Anthologies has been heightened by stacks of those collected books (three titles to a HC). The real problem is what am I doing now, and how long it takes me to step around the laundry basket (clean clothes), the drying rack and the sewing machine to the "open" shelves. Obviously I use the phrase "open" rather loosly. If no one else can get to their copy of Jargoon Pard before next weekend, I'll make the effort to pull the book out, and re-read it looking for year references.
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Irene
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#15
September 22nd, 2008, 03:02 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
Whenever I get around to it,Michael, I will remove them to DAS BUNKER, but first I have to remember which Sudoku puzzle has the password(number) from which I subtract Andre's Social Security # to get the combination.
In reality all but the recent(past two years) aquisitions are in two Barrister(sp) bookcases two or more deep which are buried by boxes and boxes of books. I can, given an hour, with care, access the top shelf of both stacks. The more recent aquisitions are scattered in bags and boxes all over the house and storage building. As for Jargoon Pard, I can't recall when I last came across any of my several copies. Later Kind Folks--Paul 
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Frontiers of any type, physical or mental are but a challenge to our breed. Nothing can stop th questing of man, not even man. If we will it, not only the wonders of space, but the very stars are ours
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#16
September 22nd, 2008, 11:47 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
No need to risk life and limb opening the secret crypts. I have found the passage I was thinking of in The Jargoon Pard, in the chapter "Of the Trader Ibycus":
I had passed from boyhood into the time of young manhood when we had an extremely plentiful harvest that overjoyed us all. Yet that was also the Year of the Werewolf, which was an ill sign in every way and which in a measure we dreaded. By rights, this season should have celebrated my wedding to Thaney. Only, under such a sign, Ursilla decided -- and Heroise, in spite of her desire to further her plans, backed her -- no such uniting could prosper. Thus it was decreed that with the coming of the new year -- which lay under the sign of the Horned Cat, a powerful one but such as promised better, the wedding would take place.If there are other passages that imply some sort of augury for naming the years exists, I cannot think of where to look. This passage doesn't state it explicitly but the implication seems rather strong to me.
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Xenite.Org - Science Fiction and Fantasy Tolkien Studies on the Web Michael-Martinez.com
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#17
September 23rd, 2008, 06:32 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
I think I remember some Dale getting word of the naming of the year. But lack of sleep (Hero's started last night), and working on this years' United Way Quilt, have prevented me from doing any research.
I would think that the council of Dames/Witches of Escarp could select a name based on some Star constilation or Augury, and then thought send it to the other women wearing the pendants. It appears that most Dales had their local Witch, even the most remote. The problem, as I see it, is that Andre Norton probably never fixed a set of years. This information could be in her private notebooks, but not to my knowledge. The first time that these years needed to be ordered is when other people began to play in the Witch World. Up until then, there was no need to create an order, as most of the books were written as time passed in a linear fashion, or with at most two separate set of characters. The major calendar was created for THE WARDING (by Juanita Colsen?) and for the Gurps Game. I'm afraid I think of this as an attempt to "put things in order". A similar attempt was made to create a unified universe for Isaac Asimov's writings. I'm afraid, what I did years ago, was write down all of the book titles, and slowly start to accumulate the paper editions. That way I could sit down, and read through an entire story arc whenever I wanted. [ex: Kemoc's story from parents to WARDING.]
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Irene
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#18
September 23rd, 2008, 09:00 AM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
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It could very well be that Andre Norton never meant there to be a specific calendar, though I would say that books like Jargoon Pard and Year of the Unicorn argue favorably towards her having something in mind. The books up until around Magestone and Warding were written more or less chronologically with Key of the Keplain definately stating it is 30 years into the future from the Turning while I believe Songsmith is also placed simirlarly in the future, though I'd have to reread it to be sure. As far as book ordering goes I did that as well: Horn Crown The Crystal Gryphon Witch World Web of the Witch World Gryphon in Glory Year of the Unicorn The Jargoon Pard: Gryphon's Eyrie: Zarthor's Bane: Were-Wrath Three against the Witch World: “Exile” Warlock of the Witch World: Trey of Swords Sorceress of the Witch World The Gate of the Cat “Seakeep”: “Port of Dead Ships” “Falcon Hope”: ‘Ware Hawk "Falcon Magic" Songsmith Key of the Keplian Mage Stone Warding of the Witch World Ciara’s Song These are all the stories I have read and ordered. I have yet to read the newer ones. This is an approximate ordering based on in-text hints of year or time order. As I mentioned, however, Magestone and Warding both are chronologically strange - at least from an in-text perspective. From a story-telling perspective they work nicely, tying together the various heroes and events of previous books. Still, if one were to write fan fiction for the Witch World it would be best to keep in mind that those two are strange chronologically. If the GURPs years are cannon then they simply don't work out - or at least I can't make them work out.
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#19
September 23rd, 2008, 04:33 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
And So - what you all are telling me is that my Witch World groupings on my website are just plain wrong. It sure would be nice if people would give me some input on it so that I could get it right.
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"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
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#20
September 23rd, 2008, 05:18 PM
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Re: Attempts at ordering the years
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Allow me to clarify, what I wrote above is the chronological order of the story in-text as far as I can determine. Your site has the correct publishing order of the books.
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