Shield-Maiden?

[Elenmir]

Exactly how many shield-maidens of Rohan rode to war at Helm's Deep? To Dunharrow? To Gondor?

I count 1. I see no sign in the text that there were others, except implicitly in the fact that Eowyn is not considered a freak.

Does anyone else find that odd?

[Coconut Ent]

The others were in disguise and took care never to remove their helmets.





And hiding Uzis in their bosoms.

[Paul Goode]

No uzis --just snub-nosed 38's. Later Kind Folks--Paul

[Mordomin]

Ok, everybody is pleased to be jocose.

I think that Elenmir's question has merit. Because I don't have the slightest idea as to the answer quantitatively, or even socially.

It's a bit ridiculous to think that Eowyn is the one and only "shield-maiden", isn't it?

[Coconut Ent]

Well, it might be that it has been such a long time since women went to battle, it's stuff relegated to legend, like the stories about Ents.

People might say, "It's only a legend." Or "Women don't do that anymore."

Hmmm... a thought just occurred to me. There were very bad times during the reign of King Helm Hammerhand. It might be that afterwards the Rohirrim would no longer risk their women in battle. If too many women of prime childbearing age were killed in battle, the Rohirrim risked extinction.

Or maybe the title of Shield Maiden was ceremonial; if a knight had no sons, or the son was away, a daughter might carry his arms in the mead-hall. In which case Eowyn might have been taking her role a little too seriously.

[Elenmir]

Originally Posted by Coconut Ent

Well, it might be that it has been such a long time since women went to battle, it's stuff relegated to legend, like the stories about Ents.

People might say, "It's only a legend." Or "Women don't do that anymore."

Do they also say that the King's niece is deranged? Come to think of it, Wormtongue might have liked that sort of talk, as a way to de-power Eowyn.

Originally Posted by Coconut Ent

Hmmm... a thought just occurred to me. There were very bad times during the reign of King Helm Hammerhand. It might be that afterwards the Rohirrim would no longer risk their women in battle. If too many women of prime childbearing age were killed in battle, the Rohirrim risked extinction.

Now you're onto something. Might not the extremis of the situation in Helm's time have forced the Rohirrim to arm their women and train them to fight?

Originally Posted by Coconut Ent

Or maybe the title of Shield Maiden was ceremonial; if a knight had no sons, or the son was away, a daughter might carry his arms in the mead-hall. In which case Eowyn might have been taking her role a little too seriously.

A good case can be made for this as well, or some combination of the above.

[King Elessar 8]

Originally Posted by Coconut Ent

Or maybe the title of Shield Maiden was ceremonial; if a knight had no sons, or the son was away, a daughter might carry his arms in the mead-hall. In which case Eowyn might have been taking her role a little too seriously.

I think this is the most likely answer.

[Mordomin]

I do not think so. The concept of a "Shield-Maiden" comes from Norse mythogy, and it is my opinion that he introduced the idea for a purpose.

What that might be, I do not have the slightest idea.

[RobRoy]

Originally Posted by Mordomin

I do not think so. The concept of a "Shield-Maiden" comes from Norse mythogy, and it is my opinion that he introduced the idea for a purpose.

I assume you’re referencing the valkyrie and the few sagas that mention skjaldmaer/skjaldmoe: like the Hervor from the Hervarar Saga. However, while the concept is the same, Tolkien’s use of it does not equate to a direct parallel, nor should it. His work, while influenced, was his own. It’s entirely possible that he adapted the title of “shieldmaiden” to his own uses, and envisioned it as having a greater or wider meaning.

I’m not saying you’re wrong here, just not certain you’re correct either.

How’s that for waffling?

What that might be, I do not have the slightest idea.

Sorry, what do you mean here? Do you mean that you don’t know why Tolkien would draw a parallel between Eowyn and the Norse shield-maidens? Or are you referencing something else?

[Michael]

There are references to valiant women in the appendix section for "The House of Eorl". One could infer (without much support) that the only shield-maidens were women of noble birth.

The Riders of Rohan were, in Tolkien's view, an organized, standing army. Whether they included women is left unanswered, but Theoden formally made Eowyn a Rider when he gave her the responsibility of leading the people at Dunharrow.

From a legal point of view, it could be argued that she had an inherent right to ride with the Riders who were led to Gondor (except that she was disobeying the King's direct command -- however, maybe the legal idea that only the King of the Mark could deal with her case would have been important).

Anyway, one does not need to envision every shield-maiden of Rohan being one of the Riders.

[Elenmir]

Originally Posted by Michael

There are references to valiant women in the appendix section for "The House of Eorl". One could infer (without much support) that the only shield-maidens were women of noble birth.

I do infer that, yet the question still remains: who are these women?

Originally Posted by Michael

The Riders of Rohan were, in Tolkien's view, an organized, standing army. Whether they included women is left unanswered, but Theoden formally made Eowyn a Rider when he gave her the responsibility of leading the people at Dunharrow.

I dispute that. My read is that he devolved onto her a civic responsibility.

Originally Posted by Michael

From a legal point of view, it could be argued that she had an inherent right to ride with the Riders who were led to Gondor (except that she was disobeying the King's direct command -- however, maybe the legal idea that only the King of the Mark could deal with her case would have been important).

Anyway, one does not need to envision every shield-maiden of Rohan being one of the Riders.

I never suggested that a "shield maiden" had any character under the laws of Rohan, let alone that they must ride with them.

In fact, my original question, still unanswered, is why is Eowyn the lone "Shield Maiden"?

[Michael]

As a Classicist Tolkien would have been familiar with a number of warrior women from ancient history. As a writer he did, in fact, experiment with different roles for women in his fiction:

• Beruthiel was the sorceress queen of Gondor
• Haleth was the "amazon" leader of the Second House of the Edain
• Erendis became a bitter, isolationist queen whose daughter Ancalime became the first Ruling Queen of Numenor
• Lobelia Sackville-Baggins was the black sheep of the family whose cantankerous attitude made her a folk-hero during the Shire's occupation by Sharkey's Men
• Luthien was the powerful Elf princess who sacrificed everything for Beren and went adventuring with him

I think each society in some way was represented by these iconic female characters. They imply that strong women were common throughout Middle-earth, rather than rare. But the cultures of Middle-earth did not normally thrust their women into combat roles. We only find a couple of examples (the Rohirrim and possibly their ancestors the Eotheod) and the Second House of the Edain.

A few historical examples that might have inspired Tolkien's literature include:

• Deborah, the female judge from Israel who accompanied the victorious army of Barak
• Ahhotep I, an Egyptian queen who may have led an army in battle against the Hyksos
• Zabibi, an Arabian queen whose army included many women, and who was a vassal to the Assyiran king Tiglath-Pileser III
• Artemisia I of Caria, who commanded five ships on behalf of Cyrus the Great at the Battle of Salamis
• Cynane, half-sister of Alexander the Great by an Illyrian princess, slew an Illyrian queen in battle (see more below)

In fact, there were many historical and semi-historical women (such as Penthesilea) with whom Tolkien would have been familiar and whose stories sometimes inspired great (or not-so-great) poetry and literature.


A note on Cynane: she died while traveling to visit her other half-brother (Philip Arrhidaeus), to whom she intended to wed her daughter. Two of Alexander's successors, Perdiccas and Antipater, sent Perdiccas' brother Alcestis to kill her. The marriage took place after Cynane's murder but the newlywed couple did not live long.

I am just so reminded of Morwen and Niniel's flight to Menegroth by this story.

[Elenmir]

In fact, my original question, still unanswered, is why is Eowyn the lone "Shield Maiden"?

[Coconut Ent]

Maybe the other Shield Maidens (if any exist) went with the refugees and not to the Pelennor? Other Shield Maidens obey orders.

[Elenmir]

Why does Aragorn address her as "shield-maiden"? Is he mocking her?

[Elenmir]

Come on you former "thudders"! Rise to the occassion! Speak up for the women of Rohan!

[Elenmir]

It is nice to see such veterans such as Attalus and Alvin Eriol rise to the occasion. And even Michael. And Mordomin.

[Michael]

I don't think Aragorn mocked Eowyn at any point in their relations with each other. In my opinion, he always honored her. In fact, in rereading the passage from "The Passing of the Grey Company" I see that it is Eowyn herself who uses the term shieldmaiden, and I infer from her usage that it is a common term -- not necessarily implying that there are many shieldmaidens, but rather than they are somehow an accept part of Rohirric society.

Her words are: "But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse?"

In fact, I found only four occurrences of the word in The Lord of the Rings and only Eowyn seems to use it (of herself, both literally and figuratively).

I think it's unlikely that a common woman would be trained to fight as Eowyn was, but Tolkien really leaves this open to the readers' interpretation.

[Michael]

Well, since writing that previous comment, I found this passage from Frodo's conversation with Faramir in "The Window on the West":

'So it came to pass in the days of Cirion the Twelfth Steward (and my father is the sit and twentieth) that they rode to our aid and at the great Field of Celebrant they destroyed our enemies that had seized our northern provinces. These are the Rohirrim, as we name them, masters of horses, and we ceded to them the fields of Calenardhon that are since called Rohan; for that province had long been sparsely peopled. And they became our allies, and have ever proved true to us, aiding us at need, and guarding our northern marches and the Gap of Rohan.

`Of our lore and manners they have learned what they would, and their lords speak our speech at need; yet for the most part they hold by the ways of their own fathers and to their own memories, and they speak among themselves their own North tongue. And we love them: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong; they remind us of the youth of Men, as they were in the Elder Days. Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Númenoreans in their beginning not from Hador the Goldenhaired, the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.

Emphasis is mine.

And from "The House of Eorl" in Appendix A:

The people of that region had become few since the Plague, and most of those that remained had been slaughtered by the savage Easterlings. Cirion, therefore, in reward for his aid, gave Calenardhon between Anduin and Isen to Eorl and his people; and they sent north for their wives and children and their goods and sealed in that land. They named it anew the Mark of the Riders, and they called themselves the Eorlingas; but in Gondor their land was called Rohan, and its people the Rohirrim (that is, the Horse-lords). Thus Eorl became the first King of the Mark, and he chose for his dwelling a green hill before the feet of the White Mountains that we're the south-wall of his land. There the Rohirrim lived afterwards as free men under their own kings and laws, but in perpetual alliance with Gondor.

'Many lords and warriors, and many fair and valiant women, are named in the songs of Rohan that still remember the North. Frumgar, they say, was the name of the chieftain who led his people to Éothéod. Of his son, Fram, they tell that he slew Scatha, the great dragon of Ered Mithrin, and the land had peace from the long-worms afterwards. Thus Fram won great wealth, but was at feud with the Dwarves, who claimed the hoard of Scatha. Fram would not yield them a penny, and sent to them instead the teeth of Scatha made into a necklace, saying: "Jewels such as these you will not match in your treasuries, for they are hard to come by." Some say that the Dwarves slew Fram for this insult. There was no great love between Éothéod and the Dwarves.

Again, emphasis is mine.

And, finally, here is a longer excerpt from the passage where Eowyn names herself a shieldmaiden for the first time:

'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'

'Few may do that with honour,' he answered. 'But as for you, lady: did you not accept the charge to govern the people until their lord's return? If you had not been chosen, then some marshal or captain would have been set in the same place, and he could not ride away from his charge, were he weary of it or no.'

'Shall I always be chosen?' she said bitterly. 'Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?'

'A time may come soon,' said he, 'when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.'

And she answered: 'All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.'

Again, emphasis is mine.

I think that Tolkien meant for the shieldmaidens to be women from notable families if only because notable families would have earned a place in the songs and lore of their people. Should they all have been formally trained? Not necessarily so. But Eowyn was definitely trained as a warrior and probably that would have been true of many of the women of the House of Eorl.

I just don't see that any more can be made of these passages without becoming totally speculative.

[RobRoy]

Originally Posted by Elenmir

Come on you former "thudders"! Rise to the occassion! Speak up for the women of Rohan!

I had to sleep last night, and since my sleep is a thing granted by my three-month old son, I take it as he dolls it out, sparingly and precious. Else I would have sat here in the hopes of being called to defend the women of Rohan . . . those that needed defending, that is.

However, what is it that we’re defending them from in this case? Are we asking if there is a class of women known as sheildmaidens who could be called, as the Rohirrim to battle? I’m not certain that’s tenable given the text. This doesn’t mean that it’s outside the scope of plausibility, but except for Eowyn’s comments, and those other descriptions which Michael has provided, there is no support for such a concept within Tolkien’s writings.

Outside, I can cite Saxo Grammaticus’ account of a troop of women who reportedly fought at the Battle of Bravalla. There was also, IIRC, a sheildmaiden who fought for the elder Lodbrok. His four sons would, following his execution by an English king, invade England.

Originally Posted by Michael

I think that Tolkien meant for the shieldmaidens to be women from notable families if only because notable families would have earned a place in the songs and lore of their people. Should they all have been formally trained? Not necessarily so. But Eowyn was definitely trained as a warrior and probably that would have been true of many of the women of the House of Eorl.

I just don't see that any more can be made of these passages without becoming totally speculative.

I agree. There is a long-standing tradition of noble women being martially trained with various weapons. They were not necessarily expected to form ranks and bear arms in a conflict, but they could defend themselves if the need arose. In the East, samurai women (samurai being a class, and not necessarily a title) would definitely have had some measure of training with various weapons, knifes, spears, bows, etc. Again, they would not have been expected to stand in battle, as their male counterparts, but that did not preclude them from doing so. There are a number of historic representations, starting with Tomoe Gozen. But Tomoe is remarkable because she is an exception, and not the rule. Though she may have inspired other women to take arms in conflict.