Options
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
- Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
-
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Undomiel > June 5th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Hello there,
Whew its been awhile since I've been on here, but me and fiance were watching RotK and TTT today and he mentioned something about Arwen and choosing to become mortal to be with Aragorn. He said that he thought it was only truly half elves (one parent 100% elf, the other 100% human) that had the choice of Luthien. Arwen, he said, was not truly a half elf (because her mother Celebrian was 100% elf, and Elrond 1/2 elf, and chose elf), so she did not get the choice, but remained an elf no matter what. This makes sense with Elrond's talk of her remaining on after Aragorn's death to wander the earth alone. He talked as tho she would remain forever to just fade away. Now, elves can give up the will to live, and she did just this in Lorien after Aragorn had died. Now, is this a valid point of view, or did she really have a choice to become mortal and no longer elf? -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Camech > June 6th, 2005, 01:14 AM
I think she gave up her place on Aman (true immortality), but she would still outlive Aragorn. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Alvin Eriol > June 6th, 2005, 10:05 AM
DHBWM, but I'll wing it.
Elrond's parents, Earendil and Elwing, were both descended from both Elves and Men. (Elwing, Beren's granddaughter, actually was 1/4 'man', her mother was a pure-blooded elf) I am given to understand from one of JRRT's essays the "default" rule is that anyone descended from mortal men are themselves mortal men (or women, as the case may be). Furthermore, if a man and elf marry, the elf does not automatically become mortal; the case of Luthien was a special one involving the intervention of Eru.
When Earendil and Elwing won through to Valinor to plead before the Valar to save the beleaguered remaining Elves and Men of Beleriand from Morgoth, they were given a choice (by Eru, through the Valar) of whether they would be 'immortal' elves or 'mortal'. They chose immortality, but could never return to Middle-Earth. Their twin sons they left behind in Beleriand, Elros and Elrond, were given the same choice. Elros chose to be mortal, and became the first king of Numenor. His descendants had no choice; they were mortal, end of story. (and beginning of another, quite tragic, story)
Elrond chose to be an "immortal" elf. As such, he had the right to sail West to the undying lands when he became weary of the mortal world (as he did at the end of the Third Age, after his ring lost its power to arrest time and sustain him and Rivendell as a refuge.)
According to the Appendices of LOTR, Elrond's children, however, were given a choice: they could be immortal elves if they departed for the undying lands before or with their father, or else if they remained would be mortal. Arwen, by choosing to remain and to marry Aragorn, committed herself to mortality.
Unfortunately, JRRT left something of a possible inconsistency in that Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir also remained behind, at least temporarily, with their grandpa Celeborn in Rivendell. This would seem to imply they also chose to be 'mortal', yet it is nowhere hinted, & Elrond didn't seem concerned or upset about their fate as with Arwen. Perhaps (strictly my conjecture!) they didn't actually have to leave immediately, but had a grace period during which they could continue to hunt orcs to their hearts content, so long as they didn't make any overt commitments as did their sister, nor stay past the point of world-weariness and aging.
Arwen, it was written in Appendix A IIRC, did outlive Aragorn, but only a short while. As you say, she lost the will to live on, and apparently laid down her life (as had Aragorn) in the old pre-Shadow Numenorean fashion.
:coffee: -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Undomiel > June 6th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Thank you for the replies. The theory is interesting, but Tolkien did make it known that Arwen became mortal. Why then does Elrond (in TTT) go on about her remaining on a long time after Aragorn has passed, to be alone in her grief and such? Does he just mean that she will outlive him by quite awhile (tho she will eventually die too) or is he hinting that she will live forever on Middle Earth and fade away at some point in the far future. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
RobRoy > June 6th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Undomiel Wrote:Thank you for the replies. The theory is interesting, but Tolkien did make it known that Arwen became mortal. Why then does Elrond (in TTT) go on about her remaining on a long time after Aragorn has passed, to be alone in her grief and such? Does he just mean that she will outlive him by quite awhile (tho she will eventually die too) or is he hinting that she will live forever on Middle Earth and fade away at some point in the far future.
As with Alvin, I DHBWM, which for me is actually quite a hinderance. But I will also wing it, and with me, that will involve only half a wing at best. Perhaps I'll drumstick it.
As I recall, Arwen does survive Aragorn, and at some point she journeyed back to Lothlorien and Rivendell. I want to say that both Aragorn and Arwen had, to some extent, a choice on when to shuffle loose the mortal coil, but please don't point a gun to my head on that one. Following that, Arwen did later choose to pass away.
I want to say that Jackson's telling of the story of what might become Arwen has some truth, and has some affectations to lend poignance to what would eventually occur. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Undomiel > June 7th, 2005, 12:12 AM
RobRoy Wrote:As with Alvin, I DHBWM,
Pardon me but what does DHBWM mean?
Quote:I want to say that Jackson's telling of the story of what might become Arwen has some truth, and has some affectations to lend poignance to what would eventually occur.
Could you elaborate some please? How do you feel it has some truth? I am wondering what your take is on it, because to me in the movie its confusing, as tho Elrond saying what he does implies that Arwen does not die, but we know she does. Does Elrond mean that she will outlast Aragorn (even tho she is mortal) by a long time?
-
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Alvin Eriol > June 7th, 2005, 09:49 AM
DHBWM: Don't Have Book(s) With Me
:dummy: :confused: -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
RobRoy > June 7th, 2005, 12:44 PM
Undomiel Wrote:Could you elaborate some please?
This was my initial elaboration:
As I recall, Arwen does survive Aragorn, and at some point she journeyed back to Lothlorien and Rivendell. I want to say that both Aragorn and Arwen had, to some extent, a choice on when to shuffle loose the mortal coil, but please don't point a gun to my head on that one. Following that, Arwen did later choose to pass away.
I was unable to delve into any of my books last night, as I was busy preparing my house to be shown for potential sale. I probably won't be able to get into it for the next week or two.
Quote:How do you feel it has some truth? I am wondering what your take is on it, because to me in the movie its confusing, as tho Elrond saying what he does implies that Arwen does not die, but we know she does.
That seems to be exactly what Jackson is saying through Elrond. Given the length of the lives of Elves, and the information Tolkien gave us, Elrond is painting a desperate picture in order to protect his daughter. I don't know exactly what the physics of an Elf's choice to become mortal means, as there were so few of them, but I was under the impression that they would still have a rather long life, and as with Aragorn, they could choose the time of their passing. They would grow weary of the world much sooner, and thus their lives would be much shorter (all speculation on my part with no source material to support).
Quote:Does Elrond mean that she will outlast Aragorn (even tho she is mortal) by a long time?
Yeppers, and from Tolkien we know that she does. Not by the length of the life of an immortal Elf, but by enough to matter. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Braveheart > June 7th, 2005, 08:23 PM
In the films Arwen drops the book and Elrond states that her hands are cold because the life of the eldar is leaving her. So this suggests that she has chosen a "mortal life" Furthermore Arwen her self states "I choose a mortal life" when she gives Aragorn the Evenstar. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Keromar > June 9th, 2005, 08:30 AM
"Becoming mortal" is not just a CONSEQUENCE of "choosing for Aragorn" or "staying in Middle earth".
Becoming mortal is the PURPOSE... Without Arwen becoming mortal, she and Aragorn could not hope to meet and be together for ever in the Afterlife.
This explains why there was no problem with Elladan & Elrohir... they could stay behind for 50, 100 or 300 years... it did not matter as long as they did not wish to become mortal.
I dare to suggest that it would be technically possible for Arwen to stay immortal, stay with Aragorn until his death, and then follow Elrond (as her brothers apparently did). But that would be so very POINTLESS for her that it is not an option. It's all about being bound or separated for eternity... If an immortal Arwen would stay with Aragorn, that would even seem blasphemous, ripping the spiritual dimension off their marriage!
Keromar -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
dasher > June 9th, 2005, 12:36 PM
Very nice point, Keromar!
When an elf dies, his or her "soul" does not go to the same place as does a man ( in fact I'm not sure there was any plan for man until after the end of Middle Earth's time), and they would have been permanently separated.
I often wondered why, at Aragorn's death, that their son and daughters would not have been of more comfort to Arwen than is shown. The appendix to RotK does not even mention how Arwen felt about her children (one has to assume that, although she loved them that it did not assuage her grief).I liked the fact that PJ added the scene with (Eldarion? my book is upstairs) her son. :book: -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
RobRoy > June 9th, 2005, 12:44 PM
dasher Wrote:I liked the fact that PJ added the scene with (Eldarion? my book is upstairs) her son. :book:
Eldarion is correct.
It was a very nice scene. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Undomiel > June 9th, 2005, 01:02 PM
I too liked that scene where she sees Eldarion, very touching.
So, lemme spell this out here (I can be rather slow on the uptake!) the whole deal is that if:
Arwen becomes mortal:
Negatives
1) She cannot go across the sea and be with her people, namely her father.
2) She has to suffer death, even tho she will live on for more years after Aragorn dies.
Positives
1) She goes wherever Aragorn goes after she dies, thus being with him forever.
Arwen remains immortal:
Negatives
1) She is forever separated from Aragorn, even unto the ends of the world.
2) She has to live with her grief forever without any hope of lessening it.
Positives
1) She can go with her people and father and be with them to the ends of the world
2) She does not have to endure death. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Keromar > June 9th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Undomiel Wrote:Positives
1) She goes wherever Aragorn goes after she dies, thus being with him forever.
Well... let's hope so for them! The final destiny is not revealed. An Afterlife for mortals is not a certainty in Tolkiens world. It is only something they can hope for... as it is for us. -
Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Gimlis Cousin > July 1st, 2005, 03:48 AM
i dont know about anyone else but if you ask me Arwen read the same passage as did Berens love but even though not immortal she was still able to live longer just like the dunedain. -
RE: Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Michael > November 27th, 2023, 01:50 PM
I'm going to revive this thread because it raised some interesting questions that were pretty-well answered, but for some reason people are asking yet more questions about Arwen and landing here.
So these are questions that recently (November 2023) brought people to the discussion.
Why Does Arwen Become Mortal?
Basically answered above but I think the point of her decision was that AFTER having lived as an elf for 3,000 years she found something that meant more to her than her long life among Elvenkind. Aragorn filled a place in her heart (or her soul) that no elf could. That was really Tolkien's point. And putting my literary critic hat, I think it was J.R.R. Tolkien's way of including his own early life romance (beyond the references to the tale of Beren and Luthien) into The Lord of the Rings.
Tolkien's wife Edith was about to marry another man when he (JRRT) came of age and was finally able to make his own decisions. His guardian, Father Francis Morgan, had forbidden the relationship for 3 years. So Ronald hopped aboard a train and went to find Edith and convince her to marry him. And she gave up whatever life she would have had with that older (then more-successful) man in order to be with him.
Why Is Arwen's Fate Tied to the Ring?
This is a convention of the movies. It's not really what Tolkien put into the book. In the book when Elrond found out that Arwen had fallen in love with Aragorn, he set one condition upon their marrying: that Aragorn must reunite the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. Elrond wouldn't give up his daughter to a mortal man who had achieved any less than that.
This was not intended to be as impossible a quest as Thingol's demand that Beren bring him a Silmaril, but it was the highest bar Elrond could possibly set. There was a very real chance Aragorn would die before reuniting the Dunadan realms-in-exile.
The only way Aragorn could succeed would be if there was a final confrontation with Sauron - which meant (effectively) that someone had to find the One Ring and then figure out a way to destroy it. That discussion happened about 8 years after Bilbo found the Ring (give or take - I don't have time to check the books).
So in the movies Arwen has a more direct connection to the Ring. Elrond set that condition. It was a more concise way of following in Tolkien's footsteps and it just worked better (in my opinion) than would have a flashback that was more directly derived from the story in the book.
Why Was Arwen Dying?
This is a reference to the movies, but I don't recall the exact scene. Peter Jackson couldn't do an extended epilogue or appendices like in the books, so he used the discussion between Elrond and Arwen to foreshadow what must come at the end of her mortal life. So the audience (and Arwen, I'm guessing) were treated to a vision of a possible future.
And it was the future that Arwen chose.
How Did Arwen become Mortal? or How Does Arwen Give Up Her Immortality?
This question has been discussed many times in many fora. There's no exact definitive answer of which I'm aware - at least, not in the context of something everyone would agree is "canonical".
But there is an essay in The Nature of Middle-earth where Tolkien writes: "At marriage Arwen became 'mortal': she would then join her husband's scale of 'expectation of life'.
The essay explains that Arwen would have begun aging as a Numenorean from that point forward, and thus when she finally gave up her life 121 years later she would have looked much older than when she married Aragorn.
The source text is titled "Elvish Ages & Numenorean" and is dated to approximately 1965. Tolkien himself put a date of 15/Aug/1965 on the paper. A margin note reads "This is the scheme followed in LR and Tale of Years", so I would take this to mean it is consistent with (and the basis for) his dating in the Second Edition of The Lord of the Rings.
How Long Does Arwen Live?
In the books Arwen lived to be just over 3,000 years old. It's not so clear to me how long she was supposed to have lived in the movies. Brian Sibley wrote a book with background information for the film's characters but it was radically different from Tolkien's own timelines. I've never asked him about those differences (and I don't know if he would have explained had I done so), but I've always assumed he did this at the direction of Peter Jackson's team in order to comply with contractual limitations and/or obligations due to the way the rights are handled.
It's not legally possible (yet) to publish a book that closely follows Tolkien's timelines (without an extensive amount of commentary), and the Tolkien Estate didn't expand the derivative rights for the movies. Christopher Tolkien was not happy with the way things went in the films.
Arwen's Hair Color
In both the books and the movie Arwen was dark-haired. I'm not sure why people are searching for information about this. I never thought there was any doubt or misunderstandings about Arwen's hair color.
Why Does Arwen Have to Leave?
This appears to be a question about the movies. Elrond tried to send Arwen to the havens to get her away from Aragorn. At least, that was my understanding. The scene also served as a way for Peter Jackson's story to explain why the Elves were leaving Middle-earth at all. Tolkien doesn't really explain things well in-story through The Lord of the Rings.
In the books some of the Elves fled because they had lost all joy in Middle-earth and were no longer willing to fight for it. They didn't see any hope of winning against Sauron.
In the movies I have always interpreted Elrond's argument with Arwen as a final desperate act to preserve his daughter's immortality because he didn't want to be severed from her. I felt that part of the story wasn't well-written but it would have been challenging to be more faithful to Tolkien's details (and technically probably not legally possible, since a lot of the required details/explanations were published in other books). -
RE: Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
badlands > December 1st, 2023, 01:48 PM
I suppose she did suffer from depression, but she knew the consequences. Is the choice the same for all elves, half elves, orcs, who are corrupted elves and half orcs? -
RE: Arwen becomes mortal...or not?
Michael > December 3rd, 2023, 12:32 AM
It's a very special choice only given to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing, but not their mortal descendants.