Options
The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
- The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
-
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
Michael > February 26th, 2024, 12:40 AM
(February 20th, 2024, 04:57 PM)RobRoy Wrote:
(February 19th, 2024, 06:14 PM)Michael Wrote: I don't think either Sauron or Melkor relied on oaths of loyalty. When the One Ring was destroyed, many of Sauron's followers fell into despair because his will no longer influenced or controlled them.
Do you think this because they relied on their own willpower to dominate and control, so it was simply superfluous? Or because for oaths to have any weight, they would need an enforcing agent, and that would mean Eru?
That last question is one of the Great Debates of Tolkien Fandom. I personally don't see how any oath or curse could be self-fulfilling without the will of Eru behind it - not even the curse the Valar laid upon the Noldor. They didn't directly enforce it. They simply left it to unfold as it would. That's why they didn't know when Earendil would arrive in Aman.
Quote:
Quote:So by the time Sauron attacked Gondor, it had been more than 100 years since the ancestors of those "Dead" Men had openly served him. They would have remembered their forefathers' servitude, and apparently still feared his great power. But at some point they were still trying to be free of him.
That's probably why they were given a chance to redeem themselves (in Tolkien's thought-narrative for the background story).
Agreed.
I was curious what you made of the line Aragorn speaks to the Dead as they're travelling: "Keep your hoards and your secrets hidden in the Accursed Years!" Does that mean there is wealth and knowledge that the Dead (when they were still living) stacked away within the caves along the Paths? If so, is there any notion of what might have come of that wealth? Would Aragorn have returned - or sent an agent - to add it to his restored kingdom?
Tolkien never referred to whatever lay behind that locked door in any writing I've seen, other than to say it [the "Dark Door"] was the entrance to a hidden temple that was still defended in Baldor's day.
I think many readers assume the Dead Men all died in the late Second Age or early Third Age, but there were at least some of them (or their descendants) still living after Rohan was established. I think Aragorn would have left the temple alone throughout his reign, especially as it really fell under the dominion of Eomer's realm. And I doubt Eomer would have wanted to disturb it, either. -
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
Michael > February 26th, 2024, 12:44 AM
(February 22nd, 2024, 10:29 AM)Jaak Wrote:
Michael Wrote:When the One Ring was destroyed, many of Sauron's followers fell into despair because his will no longer influenced or controlled them.
It is not clear that it should be described as "open rebellion against Sauron".
So the Dead Men of Dunharrow - when they swore that oath to Isildur - must have been in an open state of rebellion against Sauron.
After Downfall, it was a reasonably justified (if incorrect) guess that Sauron was dead and people previously obliged to Sauron, whether or not that obligation was entrenched by oath, were free of the oath. Oath to Isildur therefore did not appear to contradict prior obligations to Sauron, of which the Men of the Mountains were discharged.
When, however, Sauron reappeared, the obligations did conflict. So it was a reasonable case to find that the oath to Isildur was superseded by the contradicting prior oath.
Sauron's servants and allies deserted him when Ar-Pharazon brought an army to Middle-earth. So technically everyone who abandoned Sauron was in some state of disobedience or rebellion from that point forward.
He had to re-establish control over his former dominions before he could attack Gondor (and Tolkien says somewhere something like he struck too soon, hadn't fully retaken control of all his former empire).
The [not-yet-dead] Men of Dunharrow would have been living under Gondorian rule since the realm was established. So there wouldn't have been any of Sauron's former worshippers still alive by the time the war began. They would have remembered that their forefathers had worshipped Sauron. But if there was any prior oath to Sauron, it had already been violated when their forefathers deserted him. -
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
RobRoy > February 26th, 2024, 12:16 PM
(February 26th, 2024, 12:40 AM)Michael Wrote: Tolkien never referred to whatever lay behind that locked door in any writing I've seen, other than to say it [the "Dark Door"] was the entrance to a hidden temple that was still defended in Baldor's day.
I think many readers assume the Dead Men all died in the late Second Age or early Third Age, but there were at least some of them (or their descendants) still living after Rohan was established. I think Aragorn would have left the temple alone throughout his reign, especially as it really fell under the dominion of Eomer's realm. And I doubt Eomer would have wanted to disturb it, either.
That certainly makes sense, although the writer in me really, really wants one of them to send an expedition! -
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
Mordomin > March 9th, 2024, 02:21 AM
I've already told you what lives beyond the door...a cave troll driven mad by having to share his cave under the Mountains with the Dead of the curse of Isildur. I feel a little sorry for him, being mixed in matters far beyond his ken.
But Mordomin didn't.
He beat the living daylights out of the troll calling himself 'Morthond'. and subjected him to the death that trolls suffer under the Sun.
And then proceeded to carve his initials into the stone that remained. -
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
RobRoy > March 10th, 2024, 07:40 PM
(March 9th, 2024, 02:21 AM)Mordomin Wrote: I've already told you what lives beyond the door...a cave troll driven mad by having to share his cave under the Mountains with the Dead of the curse of Isildur. I feel a little sorry for him, being mixed in matters far beyond his ken.
But Mordomin didn't.
He beat the living daylights out of the troll calling himself 'Morthond'. and subjected him to the death that trolls suffer under the Sun.
And then proceeded to carve his initials into the stone that remained.
What did the cave troll live on? -
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
Mordomin > March 10th, 2024, 10:47 PM
(March 10th, 2024, 07:40 PM)RobRoy Wrote: What did the cave troll live on?
Good question! My theory/story as to this is that he came forth from the southern entrance of the Caves of Dunharrow and stole sheep and cattle and probably the occasional unlucky shepherd to eat. The locals probably attributed this to the Dead Men, although admittedly the footprints would be hard to explain. -
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
RobRoy > March 11th, 2024, 11:48 AM
(March 10th, 2024, 10:47 PM)Mordomin Wrote: Good question! My theory/story as to this is that he came forth from the southern entrance of the Caves of Dunharrow and stole sheep and cattle and probably the occasional unlucky shepherd to eat. The locals probably attributed this to the Dead Men, although admittedly the footprints would be hard to explain.
Maybe the troll walked very, very softly!
-
RE: The Loyalty of the Deadmen of Dunharrow
Mordomin > March 14th, 2024, 06:10 PM
(March 11th, 2024, 11:48 AM)RobRoy Wrote: Maybe the troll walked very, very softly!
Perhaps he did! Although I describe him as 'mad', that doesn't make him incapable of a certain low cunning.
Speaking of 'low cunning', I'm afraid my joke fell below that bar and utterly failed. For I meant to reference the phrase "Dead Men tell no Tales" and imply that "Dead Men leave no Footprints".