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turnipjuice > March 9th, 2024, 10:05 PM

Hey. A thought came worming its way in to my brain. Is there any writings concerning the fate of some of the heirlooms of famous or infamous characters in Middle Earth. Specifically I was thinking about Gil-galad's spear Aiglos. Is it entombed somewhere or kept with Cirdan or Elrond? I recall a good number of heirlooms of the Dunedain going down with Numenor such as Tuor's axe and Thingol's sword. We know the Ring of Barahir was saved. Also the sword of Turgon made it to the Third Age and beyond as part of a troll hoard before being claimed by Gandalf. Any other details?
RE: Heirlooms

Mordomin > March 10th, 2024, 01:06 AM

In my fan-fictions, Elrond returned from the War of the Last Alliance with the spearpoint of Aiglos. It was kept in Imladris until Elrond agreed to help my fan-fic protaganist re-forge it into a new spear, in order to battle the Snow Queen.

But that, as I say, is fan-fiction, not canon. I think that the most interesting heirloom is the Elendilmir.

And don't forget the Palantiri.
RE: Heirlooms

RobRoy > March 10th, 2024, 07:39 PM

(March 10th, 2024, 01:06 AM)Mordomin Wrote: In my fan-fictions, Elrond returned from the War of the Last Alliance with the spearpoint of Aiglos. It was kept in Imladris until Elrond agreed to help my fan-fic protaganist re-forge it into a new spear, in order to battle the Snow Queen.

I always wanted more information on Aiglos, but there really isn't anything after Gil-Galad dies. I like what you've come up with, although more likely it was kept with the king's body which, now that I think about it, we're never told what burial rites were done.

Do we know how the Elves performed funerals?
RE: Heirlooms

Mordomin > March 10th, 2024, 10:25 PM

(March 10th, 2024, 07:39 PM)RobRoy Wrote:
(March 10th, 2024, 01:06 AM)Mordomin Wrote: In my fan-fictions, Elrond returned from the War of the Last Alliance with the spearpoint of Aiglos. It was kept in Imladris until Elrond agreed to help my fan-fic protaganist re-forge it into a new spear, in order to battle the Snow Queen.

I always wanted more information on Aiglos, but there really isn't anything after Gil-Galad dies. I like what you've come up with, although more likely it was kept with the king's body which, now that I think about it, we're never told what burial rites were done.

Do we know how the Elves performed funerals?
My impression is that Elves don't 'do' funerals. They are rather like Star Trek's Klingons in their belief in that once the spirit has departed, the body is inconsequential. I do not think that "The Tomb of Gil-galad" was built or even contemplated.

Thank you for liking my ideas about the fate of Aeglos! Like you, I wondered about what happened to it after the Battle on the slopes of Mount Doom between Gil-galad, Elendil and Sauron.

[Added] At one time, people on this site urged me to have my fan-fic character go seeking for the Spear of Gil-galad. It certainly was an enticing idea! But then my inclination to laziness as a writer kicked in, and I asked myself "what is the end game of this story?" And once I struck upon the idea that Elrond had taken it, I couldn't come up with a plausible alternative. No doubt others could!
RE: Heirlooms

Michael > March 10th, 2024, 11:39 PM

I can think of only one Elven funeral in Middle-earth.

I don't believe Gil-galad's body would have been left to rot in some icky hollow in Mordor. They either would have buried him or burned his body.
RE: Heirlooms

Mordomin > March 11th, 2024, 07:14 AM

(March 10th, 2024, 11:39 PM)Michael Wrote: I can think of only one Elven funeral in Middle-earth.

I don't believe Gil-galad's body would have been left to rot in some icky hollow in Mordor. They either would have buried him or burned his body.
I agree that the body of Gil-galad would not have been left discarded. At the risk of sounding gruesome, I wonder how much of a body was left after (according to Isildur) the Elven-king was slain by the heat of Sauron's hand.

I've had the notion that Elven bodies generally don't last long after the spirit (fea) departs, but upon reflection this is provably untrue. The Elves built a great mound for their dead in Ard-galen after their victory in the Second Great Battle, for perhaps the most obvious example of how Elves treat their slain.

Also, the bodies of certain heroes (Glorfindel, Fingolfin) seem to have remained somehow 'inviolate' at least while the First Age endured.

I assume that Turgon coming to the body of his father Fingolfin and entombing him upon the mountain-top where Thorondor deposited him is the "Elven Funeral" you refer to?
RE: Heirlooms

turnipjuice > March 12th, 2024, 04:17 PM

(March 10th, 2024, 01:06 AM)Mordomin Wrote: In my fan-fictions, Elrond returned from the War of the Last Alliance with the spearpoint of Aiglos. It was kept in Imladris until Elrond agreed to help my fan-fic protaganist re-forge it into a new spear, in order to battle the Snow Queen.

But that, as I say, is fan-fiction, not canon. I think that the most interesting heirloom is the Elendilmir.

And don't forget the Palantiri.

Appreciate the reply. I have long admired your fan fiction Mordomin. I had indeed forgotten to include the Palantiri and the Elendilmir. So perhaps the Stone of Erech should be added too? For some reason weapons seem to on my mind. Turin's sword Gurthang was broken and rests with his body in a grave long drowned. Or did the gravesite reappear above the waves after Numenor sank into the ocean? One of many islands off the Middle Earth coast to explore! What of Angrist? I believe that is the name of the knife Beren used to pry a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Did it also nick the fallen Vala on the cheek or am I misremembering?
RE: Heirlooms

Mordomin > March 12th, 2024, 05:45 PM

(March 12th, 2024, 04:17 PM)turnipjuice Wrote: I have long admired your fan fiction Mordomin.
I appreciate you saying so!
(March 12th, 2024, 04:17 PM)turnipjuice Wrote: For some reason weapons seem to on my mind. Turin's sword Gurthang was broken and rests with his body in a grave long drowned. Or did the gravesite reappear above the waves after Numenor sank into the ocean? One of many islands off the Middle Earth coast to explore! What of Angrist? I believe that is the name of the knife Beren used to pry a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Did it also nick the fallen Vala on the cheek or am I misremembering?
I wouldn't recommend seeking out the Tomb of Turin and Nienor for the shards of Gurthang. I think that the grave was one of those points that was preserved when Beleriand was drowned. But I cannot believe that any good would come from re-forging that cursed blade.

Angrist broke when Beren attempted to pry loose a 2nd Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth.

If you want weapons, why not 'forge' some of your own? Mordomin befriended the Dwarves of Moria, and Durin eventually made for him two swords, Vórimáca and Ascatondo, "Stone-breaker" and "The Durance Blade". I submit that the story is more important than the weapon. I had to 'ret-con' the names of Vórimáca and Ascatondo into stories that I had written long before. Ascatondo into "A Ring's Ransom", and Vórimáca into several others, but most importantly the one in which Mordomin's sword (Vórimáca) is destroyed by his swiping it through the body of a Ringwraith. Thus forcing him in desperation to resort to Erufel, even though he can only wield it with his left (non-cursed) hand.

As far as I know, Ascatondo remains in the ruins of Taurn Daerebor.
RE: Heirlooms

Michael > March 21st, 2024, 12:28 AM

(March 11th, 2024, 07:14 AM)Mordomin Wrote: [quote="Michael" pid='373598' dateline='1710124797']
I assume that Turgon coming to the body of his father Fingolfin and entombing him upon the mountain-top where Thorondor deposited him is the "Elven Funeral" you refer to?

Actually, I was thinking of a different funeral. There are a few scenes where Tolkien mentions Elves being buried or their tombs.

And then there are the Dead Marshes, although I think the bodies in them were Sauron's illusions.
RE: Heirlooms

Mordomin > March 22nd, 2024, 07:56 PM

(March 21st, 2024, 12:28 AM)Michael Wrote: Actually, I was thinking of a different funeral. There are a few scenes where Tolkien mentions Elves being buried or their tombs.

And...what were you thinking of? The marker that the Gondolindrim set above the the body of Glorfindel?

(March 21st, 2024, 12:28 AM)Michael Wrote: And then there are the Dead Marshes, although I think the bodies in them were Sauron's illusions.
I am astonished that you would compare the Dead Marshes to any sort of funeral!
RE: Heirlooms

Alvin Eriol > March 25th, 2024, 01:10 PM

(March 22nd, 2024, 07:56 PM)Mordomin Wrote: And...what were you thinking of? The marker that the Gondolindrim set above the the body of Glorfindel?

You meant Fingolfin, I trust, over whom Turgon his son erected a cairn in the Encircling Mountains where the Eagle deposited his body. That's about the only legit example of an Elven burial (Elf by Elf) I can think of, unless you count Arwen laying herself down in Lórien and being buried by someone unstated (Silvan lingerers?). The occasions were of course pretty rare to begin with. The Haudth-en-Ndengin was heaped up by creatures of Morgoth at his command, while the Haudh-in-Elleth in which Finduilas was interred was made by Men of Brethil.
RE: Heirlooms

Michael > March 29th, 2024, 03:13 AM

Well, pretty much every battle won by Elves would have resulted in some sort of funerals or memorials. The fact Tolkien doesn't go into all the details doesn't mean he didn't imagine those things happening.

Did Turin and Gwindor simply walk away from Beleg's body?

What about Thingol? Did Dior take the throne beside his grandfather's corpse?
RE: Heirlooms

Mordomin > April 1st, 2024, 02:32 PM

(March 29th, 2024, 03:13 AM)Michael Wrote: Well, pretty much every battle won by Elves would have resulted in some sort of funerals or memorials. The fact Tolkien doesn't go into all the details doesn't mean he didn't imagine those things happening.

Did Turin and Gwindor simply walk away from Beleg's body?
No. They buried it.
"Then Gwindor roused Túrin to aid him in the burial of Beleg, and he rose as one that walked in sleep; and together they laid Beleg in a shallow grave, and placed beside him Belthronding his great bow, that was made of black yew-wood."

Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion (p. 248). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

(March 29th, 2024, 03:13 AM)Michael Wrote: What about Thingol? Did Dior take the throne beside his grandfather's corpse?
No. Thingol was slain in the deep smithies below Menegroth, not in his throne room.
RE: Heirlooms

Michael > April 2nd, 2024, 07:18 PM

(April 1st, 2024, 02:32 PM)Mordomin Wrote:
(March 29th, 2024, 03:13 AM)Michael Wrote: Well, pretty much every battle won by Elves would have resulted in some sort of funerals or memorials. The fact Tolkien doesn't go into all the details doesn't mean he didn't imagine those things happening.

Did Turin and Gwindor simply walk away from Beleg's body?
No. They buried it.
"Then Gwindor roused Túrin to aid him in the burial of Beleg, and he rose as one that walked in sleep; and together they laid Beleg in a shallow grave, and placed beside him Belthronding his great bow, that was made of black yew-wood."

Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion (p. 248). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I was too tired to look it up, but I was pretty sure they buried him.

(April 1st, 2024, 02:32 PM)Mordomin Wrote:
(March 29th, 2024, 03:13 AM)Michael Wrote: What about Thingol? Did Dior take the throne beside his grandfather's corpse?
No. Thingol was slain in the deep smithies below Menegroth, not in his throne room.

LOL! That was mostly a rhetorical question.

There aren't that many funeral descriptions in Tolkien's stories. Sometimes it's just a 1-line "they buried him, wept, and swore revenge" kind of thing.

There was Theoden's funeral (the one that received the most descriptive prose), and then Beren and Luthien buried Finrod and his Elven companions. Beren also buried his father.

Aragorn and Arwen sort of conducted their own funerals.

I guess Denethor burning himself alive was another self-funeral.

The Rohirrim built a few big burial mounds (and they burned the Orcs they slew). Theodred was given his own burial mound.

There was that huge mound after the Nirnaeth (Tuor's mother went to lay herself down on it after she gave birth).

Tolkien mentions the aftermath of many deaths (implying there were funerals). He just doesn't discuss funeral details as often as he discusses the details of what people eat.
RE: Heirlooms

Mordomin > April 3rd, 2024, 05:53 AM

(March 25th, 2024, 01:10 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote:
(March 22nd, 2024, 07:56 PM)Mordomin Wrote: And...what were you thinking of? The marker that the Gondolindrim set above the the body of Glorfindel?

You meant Fingolfin, I trust, over whom Turgon his son erected a cairn in the Encircling Mountains where the Eagle deposited his body. That's about the only legit example of an Elven burial (Elf by Elf) I can think of, unless you count Arwen laying herself down in Lórien and being buried by someone unstated (Silvan lingerers?). The occasions were of course pretty rare to begin with. The Haudth-en-Ndengin was heaped up by creatures of Morgoth at his command, while the Haudh-in-Elleth in which Finduilas was interred was made by Men of Brethil.
No, I meant Glorfindel.
Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel’s body out of the abyss, and they buried him in a mound of stones beside the pass; and a green turf came there, and yellow flowers bloomed upon it amid the barrenness of stone, until the world was changed.

Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion (p. 292). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
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