Andre Norton Forum

Re: Kolder and Estcarp

: Interesting questions. I assume that the Kolder a) were able to think about the East and b) would have exploited it had they been able to reach it or do anything about it. And I suspect much the same for Simon. (I wonder how much the Escore story owes to what I assume was the chance event that The Witch World and The Web of the Witch World just happened not to mention anything east of Estcarp, thus leaving that plot device open. Or does anyone know whether Norton actually planned the story line out far enough so that, in writing the first, she intentionally held open the East? I recall reading somewhere that she said she hadn't intended to make the Witch World a series but a single shot book, which would argue in favor of chance.)

She has acknowledged on at least one occasion that WITCH WORLD was to be a one-shot book. But then she saw an idea for a second book. And then YEAR OR THE UNICORN occurred to her. And then....

: You've sparked another two questions in me, though.

: 1) Do we know whether the Alizonders, Karstenians, Gormish, Falconers, Sulcars, and others couldn't think of the east? And

We don't really get to learn much about the Hounds of Alizon until late, late in the series. We learn very little about the folk of Gorm. It's said they came over sea.

Karsten gets a lot of attention in WITCH WORLD and WEB OF THE WITCH WORLD, but it's only peripheral to other stories. Even WARDING OF THE WITCH WORLD, where one party passes through Karsten, sort of excludes any great detail about the land.

We learn a fair amount about the Falconers in bits and pieces, but some of the information is provided by other authors (though Pauline Griffin has told me that Andre reviewed it all).

And, of course, there are the Sulcar-like raiders whom Kaththea encounters in Escore. Andre never expounded on this group but I suspect a reasonable extrapolation is that they were somehow cut off from the fleet and regressed.

: 2) If they couldn't, why not? The spell presumably was to keep the fleeing Old Race from returning to the East and its powerful temptations -- why bother with the others? This becomes particularly true when you consider that some of those peoples seem to have arrived in the Witch World . . . or around Estcarp . . . long after the mountains moved and the spell was laid on.

In THE MAGESTONE the Hounds of Alizon have contact with Escore. However, as this story was written by Mary Schaub, even though Andre may have reviewed it, I don't know quite what to make of the information provided in it. Sasha Miller, who wrote LADYLORD, thanked Andre for giving her Alizon to write for in one of the WITCH WORLD: THE TURNING books, but then Schaub got to write about Alizon. So more than one hand has assisted Andre with Alizon and I feel that dilutes her own creation.

: I think the most accurate answers are

: 1) that in the books as written they couldn't think of the East (we certainly have no evidence that they did until after Escore is re-opened and then it's only that Alizonders in The Mage Stone who seem to pay attention) and : 2) there is no good reason for it but it was a slip.

But consider the state of Escore as the Tregarths found it. There was basically no civilization there. Estcarp has cities, allies, ports, a standing army, trade with other lands, etc. There is a central authority. There is none of this in Escore. The various peoples don't trust each other, and sometimes are cut off from one another.

Also, when the Tregarths entered Escore and Kaththea awoke the ancient powers, they were drawn toward her and her brothers (or maybe toward her and Kemoc). So their attentions were not directed toward Alizon, which wasn't friendly toward users of power and therefore wouldn't call upon ancient powers.

The border between Karsten and Escore is poorly defined (IMO) but there doesn't seem to be much down in that region with which the Karstenians could interact.

: One could try to construct an answer similar to the one re Simon -- they had no reason to think or talk about the East as tall mountains existed and they knew of nothing of value over there . . . but what I'll accept for one person for about 5 to 10 years (however long Simon was around before he was lost and Jaelithe deserted the triplets to find him) but it seems more than a bit lame to me in the case of whole populations over centuries. Surely the Falconers, for example, would have been interested in those eastern mountains. I suppose one could also have the spell renewed and extended for all new entrants to the area or maybe even make it a geographically defined spell -- everyone on the Eastern continent west of the mountains (except those with earth DNA) are subject to it, but that seems weak, too.

Well, the Falconers had only been in the Eyrie for about 100 years prior to Simon's arrival in Witch World. Koris tells him that they settled there about a generation after Sulcarkeep was built, which I estimate to be about 125 years before it was destroyed (based on what Magnus Osberic tells Simon). Given that the Falconers had mountains to live in, I don't see that they would have been drawn toward the east.

There are a few references to the hill-tribes or clans of Karsten, though I think they are mostly in or near the mountains of Estcarp.

: Any thoughts?

: Hank Greely

: PS Did Norton (or anyone else) ever write more about how/why Simon and Jaelithe got lost beyond what appears in the Sorceress of the Witch World?

I haven't come across anything like this, but then I didn't know about WERE-WRAITH until I saw it mentioned on Lady_Witch's page.

Michael