: Elrond had a heavy say in things due to the fact that he had spent the best part of 7000 years in Middle Earth. Gandalf had spent, what? - 2000 - tops! It certainly was not Gandalf's *choice* to allow Elrond to choose then nine.

: There is a difference between wisdom and knowledge! Elrond had faced the forces of Sauron in the field, in the largest conflict short of the War of Wrath and the Fifth Battle. He was a close witness to the conflict which saw the downfall of Sauron on the slops of Orodruin. He knew A LOT about Sauron and his methods (compared to most in Middle Earth).

Gandalf understood Sauron at least as well for a few reasons. One they are like in wisdom and power. Two Gandalf has known Saruman and stayed in close contact over the years and no one knows more than Saruman (So obviously years spent in Middle-earth don't heavily count). Gandalf seems to know a lot about the enemy as he sites through out the book, bringing up what the Enemy is planning to do at the time.

: Now Gandalf, certainly being wiser, probably more powerful (though I believe this to be a *debatable* point since Gandalf was in a far less powerful form than Olorin), I believe lacked as much first hand and indepth knowledge of Sauron and the way he conducted his campaign against the free peoples of Middle Earth as Elrond had.

First of all, you don't see Elrond zapping orcs and throwing down Balrogs. Second of all Elronds "magic" comes from the ring. Gandalf has his owm "magic" plus that of his ring. Gandalf had been to Dol Guldur by himself which I think gives him some credit as well as being sent from the Valar to "battle" Sauron, which I believe gives some suggestion that he knows some things about Sauron. Also Gandalf is older than the world and has seen evil throughout time, he knows how the mind of Morgoth works so therefore he probably knows how his servants works.

: Remember Gandalf, or Olorin as he would have been at the time, last met Sauron before even Morgoth kick off - a very, very, very long time ago indeed. And Gandalf, like Manwe, found it somewhat difficult to understand the true nature of evil.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I know Manwë had trouble with this, but I don't think Gandalf had trouble.

: Elrond represented the cumulation of the royalty of Middle Earth and was certainly among the very wisest AND knowledgeable of the peoples of Middle Earth, behind (with regard to wisdom) maybe Cirdan, Celeborn, Galadriel and of course the Istari. His position and right to have a heavy influence on the party who was meant to, ultimately, be responsible for bring down Sauron, is without question! And I do not believe that he had any problem with understanding evil.

I don't question that he should have a say, rather I don't understand why he should have the abosolute final say. Gandalf labored the most in saving the ring and finding out all about it so why should Elrond have the absolute final say.

: Gandalf's *wisdom* shows when he pursuades Elrond to allow Merry and Pippin to go along. This point is a very difficult choice to understand, cause NO ONE could have known that Merry and Pippin were going to rouse the Ents, but it showed Gandalf's .......... instinct, where as Elrond was, quite rightly, trying to fill the party with people who could take care of themselves (and I will ALWAYS believe that Glorfindel should have gone along - he is one kick ass dude).

I agree with you about Glorfindel. If the Valar sent him back to aid Elrond in destroying Sauron, you'd think he'd go. But that's my problem. Why should Gandalf have to persuade anyone. He's "god" and Elrond's and elf.

: So yes, Gandalf was wiser than Elrond, but with regard to Sauron, Elrond must have been the more knowledgeable. And that, cuppled with the fact that Elrond represented the the cumulation of the royal houses of men and elves (and as Aragorn says in 'The Houses of Healing', '...Elrond is the greatest of our race...') no one was better placed or had more right to choose who took part in the greatest task of the age! The defeat of Sauron!

But the greatest of the race meant that he was greater than Elrohir, Elladan, Arwen, and Aragorn. It doesn't mean he's greater than Gandalf.

Jon