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Re: The emblem of Arnor | White Council Forum Archive - msg 1613

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Topic: Re: The emblem of Arnor    Reply to: msg 1602
Posted: October 15, 1998 at 11:56:57: by Oberon

: : It's a good question, and I don't have an answer (again, my
: : frustration at the lack of information Tolkien provides on the
: : Northern Kingdom).

: : Martin may be right, as a passage from ROTK suggests, in
: : describing the standard Aragorn unfurls on the Corsair
: : flagship:

: : "There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but
: : Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs
: : of Elendil that no Lord had borne for years beyond count..."

: : It seems -- logically -- that the Seven Stars and the crown
: : were the common symbols of the House of Elendil, whether in its
: : Northern or Southern branches. Martin's suggestion that the
: : crown and stars were arrayed around his cypher is as likely as
: : any in the absence of better evidence, which I hope someone can
: : provide.

: In Letter 211 Tolkien says that Gondor had a crown and Arnor had a diadem (for the kings, as the ancient Egyptian kingdoms had similar ornaments).

Good point. I had forgotten about that.

: So I believe the emblems in Aragorn's banner stand for the following:

: 1) The Seven Stars = The House of Elendil

: 2) The White Tree = Gondor

: 3) The Crown = the King (in this case, the High King, rather
: than the King)

: Aragorn was basically claiming the throne as Elendil's Heir, not as either Isildur's (a claim which had been rejected) or Anarion's (which claim, apparently, he could not assert because Gondor recognized only candidates descended of a male line).

There's no question that he was, ultimately, claiming the High Kingship; as a direct male lineal descendant of Elendil, he had the right. And as things worked out, he did in fact reign as the High King -- and only King.

I'm not sure I agree with the rest of what you say here, however. Even before his crowning, he was hailed as the "King of Gondor," not some other formula, such as the King of the West (as he is referred to at the final breaking of the Fellowship at Orthanc), or High King of the Numenoreans, etc.

In regards to his claim on the throne of Gondor (as opposed to the High Kingship), he did indeed have a claim, particularly seeing as he was the _only_ lineal male descendent of Elendil remaining. It is true that Pelendur, the Steward of Gondor, rejected the claim of Arvedui, to Gondor's crown following the death of Ondoher and his sons in 1944 T.A, arguing that the succession was reckoned only by male descendents (rejecting Arvedui's marriage to Ondoher's daughter as a claim), and that it was reserved exclusively for the Line of Anarion. This does not appear to have been an irrevocable law (as evidenced by the fact that it did not keep Faramir from recognizing Aragorn's claim), nor a particularly well-founded decision, as Arnor's response indicated in citing the example of ancient Numenor's royal succession by the eldest offspring regardless of sex. The lack of respect that Gondor had for the Line of Isildur and Arthedain, and reluctance to cede control to an outsider -- not to mention Earnil's fresh victory laurels -- probably had more to do with Pelendur's decision than the Gondorian custom of male succession. I suspect that if Earnil had been, say, Ondoher's sister-son, and were the only claimant left, Pelendur would have happily altered the succession custom for him.

In any case, one key condition had changed between 1944 and 3019: the Line of Anarion was extinct -- or to the extent that it was alive, it had been rejoined with Isildur's line with Arvedui's marriage to Finduilas, and lived on in Aragorn himself. Either way, it seems that the crown of Gondor defaulted to the Line of Isildur with the absence of any claimants (male or otherwise) of the line of Anarion.

: : It also puts the political significance of Aragorn's act in a
: : better light. That he had the right to claim the kingship of
: : the defunct Kingdom of Arnor, and display its symbols, no one,
: : not even Denethor, could have challenged; but by displaying the
: : Tree, Stars and crown, he was specifically displaying only his
: : claim to Gondor's throne. It was indeed a bold act, and one
: : which could have generated great difficulties if Denethor had
: : not committed suicide. Not that there was much to lose -- the
: : Dunedain of the North had not the power or the base to
: : reconstitute the Kingdom of Arnor save as an adjunct to a
: : revived Gondor.

: Aragorn would have confronted Denethor with a Gondorian army and a great victory to back up his claim to the throne.

It would certainly have placed Denethor in a difficult position. Aragorn was essentially in the position of Earnil after his victory at the Battle of the Camp. But Denethor's intransigence would certainly have complicated things.

: It would have weakened the West's resolve for there to be conflict between Aragorn and the Steward, however, so Denethor's suicide averted what could have been total disaster.

No question about that!

: What would have happened if Sauron did not feel the need to empty Mordor of his soldiers, but rather concentrated on finding the "spies" who were slinking around his realm?

Most likely a pair of new hobbit prisoners for Sauron and a long Age of Darkness.

: : Of course, it appears that Aragorn intended Gondor's standard
: : to be the symbol of the entire Reunited Realm after assuming
: : the throne -- or at least there is no evidence to the contrary.

: I believe this would have been perfectly acceptable. It would have been Aragorn's standard, previously unused in history.

True. It would be the standard of Aragorn's new House, the House of Telcontar.

Oberon



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