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Re: Predestination, Free Will and Gandalf's Role in this | White Council Forum Archive - msg 1614

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Topic: Re: Predestination, Free Will and Gandalf's Role in this    Reply to: msg 1612
Posted: October 15, 1998 at 20:14:51: by Jon
:

: : I think you have it right, Steve...Illuvatar, and to a slightly lesser degree the Valar, know what's going on and have pledged to stay out of it, to let the choices take their appointed paths. However, why did Gandalf (Olorin?) get involved then? Was his involvement part of the overall plan or did he just have an attack of worries about Middle Earth and decide that he should lend a hand? And was he sent or did he choose to come on his own (did somebody else bring this to his attention, like his 'superiors' or did he view the situation and say this has gotta stop)?

>> The only Vala who knew all was Mandos (Namo) and even Illuvatar his a few things from him. The only way they (the Valar) could find out the future was to have Manwe ask Mandos for a prediction.

: The Istari were chosen by and sent by the Valar, arriving in Middle Earth ca. 1000 of thr Third Age. See the chapter on the Istari in "Unfinished Tales."

>> Not all arrived in 1000 of the Third Age, Tolkien later speculated that the Blue Wizards came around 1600 of the Second Age.

: : Does Gandalf, being a 'lesser God,' have freedom of choice as well?

: Yes. See the chapter referred to above.

: In fact, of the five Istari sent to Middle Earth, only one stayed true to the mission of contesting with Sauron. The Blue Wizards went into the East and passed out of the knowledge of the Wise; Radagast became enamoured of animals and growing things; and Saruman, of course, was corrupted.

>> The Blue Wizards did not totally fail. Alatar and Pallando were actually incredibly and vitally improtant to the War of the Ring. Tolkien says in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH that the Bluse Wizards were sent to the East to try to stir up rebellion among the tribes and combat Sauron. They were very successful in this. Tolkien says without their work the East would have FAR outnumbered the West in the Second AND Third Ages. The only thing they failed in was that they did not find and combat Sauron after his downfall at the end of the Second Age.

Jon



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