: I'm not that sure that Sauron with the Ring was all that more powerful. He was defeated by a combination of the Noldor of Lindon and the Numenoreans, then defeated and captured by the Numenorians acting alone, then defeated and disembodied by a further coalition of Elves and Dunedain - all when in possession of the Ring. Not a totally invincible record. Admittedly his opposition was tougher in the earlier times - though in balance they didn't have the help of a Maia as the Free Peoples had in The War of the Ring.

It does not seem a very good record, having been defeated three times I agree, but then look at his opponants.

Firstly the Noldor and the men of Numenor. The Noldor, who must still have had considerable numbers (though a lot did return to Valinor after the First Age) still having a High King and the men of Numenor - fast becoming the greatest nation on Earth, having been taught many things and enhanced by Eonwe.

Secondly, Numenor at its height! The Numenor that had become the most dominant force the world had ever seen (short of a force mustered in Valinor). The Numenor that challenged Vailnor itself. Tolkien says in one of his letters that had Eru not intervined then the Numenoreans may have taken Valinor, not because the Valar were incapable of defeating them, cause I don't believe for one minute that the Valar couldn't have stomped all over Ar-Pharazon and his cronies, but because they had no right to and could not interfere directly with the dealings of men, even to save themselves, which was solely Eru's realm of influence.

Thirdly and finally (in the Second Age that is) The Last Alliance, which is clearly stated as the greatest gathering since the days of The War of Wrath (or something like that) were all creatures that lived and fought were divided between either side in some way. Also Tolkien states in one of his letters that Sauron had not recovered his domain fully and that, that would have only happened when he had recovered his own personal power and potency. Therefore he was; a) not up to scratch himself, and; b) not as potent a miliary force as he could have been had the Last Alliance not struck early.

OK being done over three times is nothing to be proud of, but I do think we should take into account who his opponents were - they were, after all, no push overs themselves.

: About the Nine - when Sauron was overpowered and had his Ring cut off, the Nazgul apparently faded away like their master, but what happened to their rings?

I would suggest that they were somehow able to keep their rings with them. After all Sauron did excatly that when he went down with Numenor, and he returned - disembodied - still with the One Ring.

: If Sauron had them on his person then surely Isildur would have taken them. Wherever they were Sauron would have lost control of the rings at this point, being disembodied and diminished, so it is a puzzle how he could have re-asserted his control over the Nine Rings when he became re-embodied (as he did not have possession of the Ruling Ring), if he didn't have any ability to access at least some of its powers at a distance. It seems reasonable to state that it was a property of the One Ring which gave authority over the lesser rings, not an innate property of Sauron - otherwise why did Sauron make it? If Sauron had no ability to call on at least this power of the Ring at a distance how did the other rings come back under his control? You said yourself that even when not in possession of the Ring Sauron remained its "Master." If this word means anything other than a mere proprietorial claim on the Ring, it must imply that at whatever distance Sauron maintained some sort of rapport with the Ring. This connection would then suggest that Sauron was never completely bereft of all its powers.

Sauron was Master of the One Ring, of that I have no doubt. The Master of the One Ring controlled the nine riders, of that too I have no doubt.

Why did Sauron not loose control of the nine and keep them utterly subserviant?

Because no one else had attempted, or rather succeeded, to Master the One Ring for themselves. It is stated a number of times that whoever used the One to overthrow Sauron would set themselves up in his place, gaining all, that Mastery over the One would give them. Saruman, when confronted by the Nazgul at Isengard when they are talking about what they seek, say something like:

"I know *what* you seek. I have it not as surely as its servants percieve, for if I had it then you would bow down before me and call me lord!"

This may have been a scene that the BBC put in (I have not got LOTR on me to check the Council of Elrond), but even if it is, I believe it is very good and accurate to the truth. Saruman says "I have it not..." talking about the One, and "...as surely as its servants percieve..." - *it* being the One, *servants* being the Nazgul, therefore they were servants of the One and whoever the Master of the One was, i.e. Sauron. Saruman concludes "...for if I had it then you would bow down before me and call me lord!". Saruman had delved deep into the *lore* of rings and he should have known what he was talking about. Therefore he knew that whoever Mastered the One, would master also, and have complete obediance from, the Nine Riders.

The Nazgul were slaves to the One because of their unique situation - being ring-wraiths - an effect which was not duplicated when the elves wore their rings or when the dwarves wore their rings. Sauron certainly did NOT have power over the other rings of power when not possessing the One because otherwise the elves would not have worn the Three and it is well known that Sauron became totally frustrated when he found the Dwarves would not bend to his will, even when he wore the One!

When Sauron first put the One Ring on his finger, the elves quickly removed theirs for fear of being dominated.

I stick by what I have said. Sauron had *NO* power over or from the One when he did not have it, other than already being the Master of the One and until another (like Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan and maybe a few others) chose to use the One against him, then Sauron would maintain his command over those who were slavs to the One, i.e. The Nazgul. The power over the Nazgul was not one that you switched on and off, it was far more subtle and always there for whoever was the One's Master.

Cheers

Padster