: And Gandalf also says in the same chapter:

:

'...I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.'

: Just as you can make no solid conclusions from Gandalf's uncertainty about a conflict with the Witch-King, you cannot make any clear statement as to what he meant when he said this.

: : It is also hard to fathom that the wraith of some man, could even challenge a Maia. As is the case with The Lord of the Nazgūl and Gandalf. Plus the Nazgūl even seemed to fear Aragorn, and as mighty a man as Aragorn was, Gandalf is far and away superior to Aragorn in everything.

: Abserd you may think it, but it may well be true that the Lord of the Nazgul was a match, or a near match for Gandalf.

: What does Gandalf say about such a confrontation:

:

'Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of his
: captains is already master of your outer walls,' said Gandalf.
: 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the
: Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of
: despair.'
: 'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said
: Denethor......Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you
: are overmatched?'
: 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of
: strength is not yet come.......'

: That is plain enough whether you like it or not. Gandalf was uncertain what a conflict between to two would result in. There is no definitive facts which say who would win, but there is plenty that says the result is very far from certain.

: Also look into the background about the Witch-King. He was plainly meant to be a being of vast personal power. In The War of the Ring (HOME 8) some of Gandalf's original words were (when talking to Pippin):

:

'No, he will not come except in triumph,' said Gandalf. 'He
: weilds others as his weapons.  I speak of one whom you have
: met.  The Wizard King, captain of those you called the Black
: Riders.  Most fell of all the servants of the Dark Tower.  But
: he has not taken to winged steeds.  In him I am not overmatched,
: and yet still I am matched, for he was a member of our order
: before evil took him [13]......'

: Tolkien plainly meant the WK to be very potent indeed. The Lord of the Rings is the best source of published material on Tolkien's world that we can be assured is correct. Notes leading up to what made the final version, I would argue, have more credibility than certain other notes which make up information concerning tales in Middle Earth other than The Lord of the Rings. Therefore, although the HOME 8 information on the Witch-King cannot be taken as gospel, it certainly can give us a guide as to how powerful the WK may have been, especially when we lack any other evidence.

: If the WK was of Gandalf's order, what does that mean - surely not an Istari, which leave The Wise. Possibly an Elf, previously one of the Wise, who refused the summons to Mandos and got caught by Sauron - unlikely, for such an elf would have surely been mentioned. Who then? Was the WK one of the three Numenoreans who took rings of power? Probably! And the Numenoreans were no slouches. They conquered Middle Earth, they challenged the power of Valinor. They were HARD! And the WK was meant to have been a powerful Sorcerer before his Wraithdom.

: You cannot discount the evidence that Tolkien intended the WK to be one hell of a potent guy, potent enough to be the figurehead of evil in the War of the Ring. Neither Evil nor Good can be more powerful than the other in the waking and physical world, otherwise one would overcome the other and would then in turn loose its purpose. So long as there is evil, good will be around to combat it and visa versa. You can therefore deduce that in the real world as the peoples of Middle Earth saw it, the WK was the power of evil and Gandalf was the power of good.

: Now my personal view is that if it came to an out-and-out slogging match Gandalf would win, but it would NOT be easy and certainly not be a forgone conclusion as seems to be the opinion of some. To think that Gandalf could so easily have brushed aside the most powerful individual that Sauron had at his disposal is to belittle the danger that the WK was to the west.

: Gandalf was very powerful. Sauron was much more powerful (although with the loss of the ring, he may not have been much more powerful). Sauron's head guy would be very powerful also, for Sauron would not allow the command of his forces to go to one who did not have the power.

: Cheers

: Padster

: (I could write more, but its real late (UK time) and I would much rather hear what you lot have to say!)

I am not saying he wasnt a match. The original argument was why didnt the Witch-King take out Gandalf, Glorfindel or whoever, because they where men and he couldnt fall by the hands of men. Im just saying that Gandalf's not a guy you just walk up to and stomp! He held four Nazgul back at Weather Top and killed a Balrog, all in his Grey form. I think the Witch King new better than totry and stomp on him, a wizard returned from the grave and power magnified by a Ring of Power!

Ryan Williams