: : : : In some of Tolkiens earlier(?) work he had the Valar have
: : : : children. Fionwë (Eonwë) was supposedly the child of Manwë and
: : : : Varda.

: : : : Genders really weren't that important. I read up on this
: : : : subject a few years back, and if recall correctly, genders
: : : : were more a representation of personality. Tulkas, for
: : : : example, is a great warrior, a classic male roll. Therefore he
: : : : embodies a male.

: : : : But keep in mind, Valar and Maiar have no bodies. They can
: : : : take any form that pleases them, so I wouldn't really say that
: : : : any of the Maia or Vala have genders at all.

: : : Well, in the conception published in THE SILMARILLION they have what might be called an inherent gender preference -- hence, the distinction of "male" and "female" among them was there.

: : : I believe Tolkien was simply holding gender over from the original mythology for England which had abandoned. As some people have noted in past discussions, he began to return in some ways to that concept late in his life, and had he lived to finish his work (if he could have) he might have altered all the stories incredibly in several ways. One way would have been the restoration of Aelfwine, the Anglo-Saxon traveller who uncovered the ancient stories and preserved them (although how he would tie all that into the RED BOOK OF WESTMARCH, I'm not sure).

: : : On the other hand, Tolkien was moving away from the original mythology altogether. He created male and female gods as seemed appropriate according to "real" or "folk" mythologies of the northern world. Their genders seem to be more important in real mythology. But after THE LORD OF THE RINGS was published, when Tolkien turned his attention back to "Quenta Silmarillion", he began to slowly evolve the opinion that the Eldar were highly civilized and perhaps more advanced than we are (or were, say, in the 1960s) in knowledge and understanding of the universe.

: : : From this point of view, he couldn't reconcile the Elvish stories of the creation of the stars, the world, the sun and the moon, and Earendil's star (Venus) with the Elves' profound widsom and lore. So he began to "speculate" that the stories (which we now read in THE SILMARILLION) were actually Mannish tales, adapted from older Eldarin lore which has changed through the ages.

: : : Even so, the creation of Sun and Moon, the awakening of Men, and other elements were being considered for radical change -- the story of the Two Trees might have vanished altogether. So, too, one may guess, might the genders and grand personalities of the Valar have vanished into a more Christian-like adaptation. And yet that might throw into peril the story of Beren and Luthien, who was the daughter of Melian the Maia.

: : : I'm sorry Tolkien never finished the work, but I'm glad he did not remake the stories -- I think their beauty would have been diminished, although he might have introduced other beauty to replace the old.

: :
: : It is possible that Tolkien held similar beliefs to his fellow inkling C S Lewis. In Lewis's Cosmic Trilogy - in particular Perelandra - he explains how the "Angelic Powers" of his cosmology - the Eldils - who were essentially spiritual beings - apparently had gender. In his reasoning the expression of gender in corporeal beings was only a manifestation of a fundamental division in the whole of creation - a little like the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang. Thus the posession of the requisite genitals was not the basis of masculinity and femininity - thus the head Eldil of Mars appeared male and in contrast the head Eldil of Venus appeared female. The same reasoning could be used to explain Ainur gender in Tolkien's work.

: C.S. Lewis's Perelandra series was heavily influenced by Tolkien during the time he was writing it. Numenor is even mentioned in one of the novels.

: Ian

Yes, the Venusian Adam and Eve were called Tor and Tinnidril - obviously derived from Tolkien's Tuor and Idril. The possibility of some reverse influence from Lewis on Valar gender might be a strong possibility at this time.

Martin