: : : :

: : : :   "Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because
: : : :   they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of
: : : :   Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that
: : : :   manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save
: : : :   only in majesty and splendour.  Moreover their shape comes of
: : : :   their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World
: : : :   itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment,
: : : :   and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being.
: : : :   Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then
: : : :   even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be
: : : :   present.  But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar
: : : :   take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for
: : : :   that difference of temper they had even from their beginning,
: : : :   and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by
: : : :   the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by
: : : :   the raiment but is not made thereby...."
: : : : 

: : : : Note several things here:

: : : :

: : : :
1. Tolkien speaks of "the visible World"
   : : : :
2. He says "even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them"
   : : : :
3. He speaks of our "raiment" with respect to the sexes
   : : : :

   : : : : Tolkien was speaking of one world in which we (Incarnates) dwell on two levels: the "seen" and the "unseen", the "visible" and the "invisible". The Eldar can perceive "unclad beings", though the perceive the Valar only with difficulty. And even our own bodies are called "raiment" by Tolkien. By extension we can say that without our bodies we have not lost ourselves, just as the Valar suffer "no loss of their being" when they are not Incarnated.

   : : : : Gandalf says of the Eldar who have lived in Aman that against both the Seen and the Unseen they wield great power. They have learned much from the Valar and Maiar. But the Seen and the Unseen coexist within Ëa in the same reality. There is no division, no concept of separate worlds, except insofar as two people may live and function in different parts of the world and be "in separate worlds" metaphorically.

   : : : Of course the first question that arises is "Unseen by whom?" - humans presumably.

   : : : This question aside there seems to me to be a potential for a division even within the unseen world. It is an unescapable truth that the seen world of Tolkien is divided into various spheres of differing reality. Even before the Akkalabeth the reality of Valinor and Middle Earth differed markedly. The Elves did not fade in Valinor and many other natural processes found in Middle Earth (such as physical decay) did not pertain beyond the western sea. This in my view constitutes a differing reality. To me a reality is based on the consistant application of certain laws of cause and effect. I cannot concieve of any other valid definition of this term. The separation in the seen realm is one of physical distance, presumably in the unseen world this would not neccessarily hold true. If in the real, or seen, world separate environments could exist between which the physical laws of existence could vary enormously, then there could be no philosophical objection to the possibility of similar dichotomies existing in the realm of the unseen. Therefore it would remain a formal possibility that the "Wraith-world" mentioned by Gandalf had some level of separateness from both the seen world and other manifestations of the unseen.

   : : ---Sorry to butt in, but doesn't it say somewhere that the Valar removed Valinor from being accesible by Middle Earth after the fall of Numenor. Doesn't this suggest that things in Ea can exist in both the seen and unseen, and that the 'wrath-world' which, I presume is also the 'unseen world' can be completely seperated from Middle Earth, and so seen as a seperate reality, which can, CAN, coexist with the 'seen' world, but doesn't need to. I'm afraid I'm completely underqualified for this debate, and don't have a copy of the Silmarillion handy, so if I'm just making matters more complicated, please tell me, and I'll quite happily shut myself up. :-)
   : : Thorongil---

   : The more the merrier!

   : As I read it you are saying that the separation of Valinor after the Akkalabeth is proof that Arda was at least potentially separable. That it was not created in a form that made division impossible.
   : So that an earlier separation of the wraith world from the rest of Arda was at least feasible. I think this is a very valid point.

   : The separation of Valinor was an act made directly by Eru which could be seen as perhaps weakening the argument, though the separation of the wraith world would seem to be a somewhat lesser task.

   : After the separation Valinor was both separate but still accessible to certain beings (Wizards both ways elves one way)- I think this does give a useful precident for the wraith world having both a separateness and interaction with the visible world.

   : Thanks for the input.

   
   I think I'll answer this one, as you agree with me more. Unfortunatly, I think that on this point at least, Micheal is correct. Interesting discussion though, keep it up.

   Thorongil