: : Eeerrr!?! No! Sauron was a Maia and he wasn't a Balrog. The Balrogs, were merely among the most potent Maia that Morgoth seduced. They were also Maia spirits of fire. Osse was of water, at least it can be argued that he was. Morgoth tried to seduce him. Would Osse have changed into a Balrog. I think not!

: : : : Jon

: : : I get very nervous when I post with Jon or Padster because I think they have both forgotten more about LOTR than I know.

: : Nonsense Hama. Your opinion has just as much validity and right to be here as any other. In fact it would be nice if more did so. Things here have seemed a bit slow recently.

: : : However, in all the times I have read that chapter I have never gotten any sense of a "personality" or "entity" associated with Caradhras other than when Gimli turns back at the end and says, OKAY we're going.
: : : I think, in my humble opinion, that Caradhras is the first time that Sauron reaches out towards the company (after the failure of the Nine Riders at the Ford.) once they start the quest. For me reading the books, it was the firt time I felt the power of Sauron lashing out against the Fellowship. If I thought Caradhras had an essence or soul or being, as opposed to thinking that it was Sauron acting upon it, my feeling about Sauron and his powers at that moment would be greatly lessened.

: : A good point. And one that has as much validity as any other that has been expressed so far. In fact I would tend to agree. Having Sauron stretch forth his hand and effect a large area of the mountains in an attempt to delay the company is a disgusting display of power, and one that I like the sound of. But then I've always been a favourite of Sauron having been among the top three Maia around and he should be able to express that sort of power.

: : : Of course that only leads to the question of who was forcing the action of the tenacled arms and the Balrog in Moria?

: : Sauron again I suppose. As far as the tentacles go anyway. Sauron's ability to influence the Balrog has been disgused here before and I don't plan to go into my thoughts unless this area is cover again.

: : Cheers

:
: : Padster

: All very interesting. I got two impressions while reading the section on Caradhras. One that it was a living being in its own right with a nasty reputation (like Old Man Willow), and that indeed Sauron was bending his will outward to do whatever harm he could to the Fellowship. Whether or not he controlled the actions of Caradhras, I do not know for certain. I think in some cases Sauron didn't directly control, but rather amplified a pre-existing nature inherent in beings. If the mountain was nasty and cold, it just became nastier and colder. One manifestation of this would be the Fell Winter, where it is possible that the natural winter was made a bit colder and longer than normal. Recall also that Tolkien seems to look at mountains as "living" beings, with roots and secrets that go deep into the earth where entities existed that not even Sauron was aware of. Like I said, this is just my "impression" and I can't really prove the point, but I don't think it is necessary to imagine earth elementals or even balrogs as the force behind the mountain.

For the most part I agree. I think that Sauron had little or no influence on the mountain. Here's why, would Sauron have stopped the snow as soon as they began to leave the mountain? No. He would have gone for the kill.

Jon