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Re: Arwen - Was She Active Or A Stay-At-Home? | White Council Forum Archive - msg 4562

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Topic: Re: Arwen - Was She Active Or A Stay-At-Home?    Reply to: msg 4551
Posted: August 30, 1999 at 23:03:14: by Fangorn
: : : : So basically, even though you don't think Arwen went with any
: : : : of the search parties, you feel that she was one of the few who
: : : : could ride openly against the Nine? So, she couldn't go on a
: : : : search party, but she could travel all the way to Lorien, even
: : : : though, as you say, "Sauron would be after her in a minute?"
: : : : Something is wrong with this picture... :)

: : : I'll join the discussion here. :)

: : : For my part, I don't think Arwen was weak. In terms of potentially ranking among Elvenkind, she was positioned to be reckoned one of their greatest women. She was a princess or lady from the noblest families in Middle-earth's Elvendom, raised and trained in the greastest center of lore and learning in the Third Age, and descended of Finwe, Elwe, and Melian. She had a lot of factors in her favor for turning out to be something other than a quiet, mousy little Elf-maiden.

: : : Also, although Elrond had Arwen brought back to Rivendell because things were growing dangerous in the east, one must wonder if he wouldn't have ensured she'd be as well prepared to defend herself after Celebrian's capture and suffering as he could induce her to be.

: : : Fighting was intrinisically a non-womanish trait among the Elves, but that doesn't mean they were incapble of acquiring the skills and devoting themselves to warfare. They were the nurturers and the men were the warriors, except as occasionally evidenced by people like Elrond (who apparently gave up warfare in the Third Age to become a great healer).

: : : As for who else in Rivendell could have gone out against the Nazgul, I would venture to say there were undoubtedly still several Noldorin lords in the area similar to Gildor, leaders of groups of Elves who were living with or close to Elrond's community. The Elves named at the Council or in other areas of the book need not be considered the only lords in Rivendell and the adjoining lands. Erestor is presented as the chief of Elrond's councillors -- apparently there were more, though unnamed.

: : : Perhaps Erestor himself was one of those Elrond sent out to look for Aragorn and the Hobbits.

: : Of course this question goes back to the debate over Arwen's role in the film. Many have assumed that Jackson will be putting a sword into Arwen's hands, though with the casting of Liv Tyler that seems a bit hard to imagine. But I had assumed that Arwen had more power of the Elvish sort than most and the moxy to use it at need. With war looming on the horizon, and being greatly outnumbered it wouldn't seem illogical to me that Elven women took a more active part in the defense of Elven strongholds. But I'll be the first to admit that there is little in the book to encourage such a view. Arwen is seen so little in the book that we know little about her character. We know some facts about her, but we don't really know "her".

: We do not know her, but we can try to make assumptions based on other elven women in Silmarillion, was she a Melian or a Luthien? I believe that most elven women were the kind of victorian stay-at-homes that Tolkien would use as conservative or old-fashioned to show the age of elves (oh bugger I am vague) they had the culture, civilisation and sophistication as well as habits (the less nauseating or licentious) of the wealthy Roman aristocracy or the romantic ideals of the High middle Ages, whereas the Edain/Northman shieldmaidens were parallel to the savage norse/germanic ones. I believe that the elves would shield and protect their women much as the dwarves did theirs, after all, they were both treasures and the potential mothers of the next generation of elves who got fewer and fewer. As for Noldo lords, I believe that it is somewhere mentioned that there were other houses in the vicinity/valley of Imladris than Elrond's, some of them might be headed by great elven lords who remains unnamed and mostly lets Elrond guide/rule as he sees fit without interfering.
: These could well have gone searching.
: ;-) Neithan Turambar


I think, to put this into perspective, we must not only look at middle-earth but our own history books aswell. At the time Tolkien wrote LOTR (1930's - 1950's) women were allot less active in wars and on battle fields and such-like and this runs into Tolkien's writings. I mean, the Lady Galadriel, who was probably the oldest and wisest elf on middle-earth, had almost nothing to do with the war itself (on the battle fields). The only women in LOTR who actually does go into battle is Eowyn of Rohan and in disguise, I might add. So I would say, in all likeliness that Arwen was a stay-at-home queen, going to visit Gran and Grandad in Lorien and bringing back the odd message etc. But fighting and defending Imladris and going off in search parties....I dont think so. And not only because Daddy wouldn't allow it but Tolkien himself.



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