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Re: Estimation of Population in Gondor and Minas Tirith | White Council Forum Archive - msg 5014

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Topic: Re: Estimation of Population in Gondor and Minas Tirith    Reply to: msg 5008
Posted: September 16, 1999 at 15:13:57: by Neithan
: : : If we assume Gondor had 45,000 soldiers, the overall
: : : population goes up to about 3,000,000.

: : That is very, very, very little, I agree mostly though
: : (remember my remark that Gondor was more sparsely populated
: : than Denmark in the Iron Age?). I believe that we have to try
: : and take another perspective though- one where we assume that
: : the situation is similar to the west roman empire in its death
: : throes. It was still supposed to have a large army (I cannot
: : remember the exact number but Arther Ferril gives a good
: : analysis of the situation in his "The fall of the Roman empire-
: : the military explanation"), but could field no more than
: : 10.000- 50.000 men and mercenaries on any given campaign- even
: : a major one (I am talking after Julian's catastophic Parthian
: : campaign, Hadrianopolis, Frigid River etc.)

: As much as I love to point to the Classical influences in Tolkien, like the Medieval influences they only get us so far.

: The Roman Army of the western empire was seriously depleted by the eastern emperors, and the western emperors had to rely more and more on barbarian foederati. There is no similar situation in Gondor. Rohan doesn't count because it was an independent nation, not a group of Northmen living within Gondor's boundaries sharing their territory with native Gondorians.

: I think the last major army fielded in the west was Aetius' conglomeration of Romans, Visigoths, Alemanni, and whatever else he could find which fought the Huns to a standstill in Gaul. I don't recall any numbers off the top of my head, but it was a rather large force by the standards of the time, I believe.

: Gondor is in some ways more like Troy, cut off from the world but still aided by a few allies, or perhaps like the Anglo-Saxon kingdom confronted by the Vikings and Normans combined. It's a powerful nation but it's facing superior forces. The Normans alone could not have conquered England. William benefitted from an attack in the north which distracted Harald and nearly prevented him from reaching Hastings.

: Of course, the impact of that northern invasion has been a matter of much debate, but I think England was definitely hard pressed to defend itself against two foes, just as Troy was hard-pressed to defend itself against the Greek alliance. Tolkien seems to be emphasizing the greater number of enemies over the depletion of Gondor's people. Yes, Gondor has declined considerably through the centuries, but it is still so mighty a nation that Sauron has to bring in armies from all over in order to defeat it.

The geographical area of Gondor was large enough to support even an ancient or medieval population of thrice the number (3 mil.) you gave. Thus I deduce that there must indeed have been a decline similar to the Roman one (weakened by invasion, plague and civil war), and make the assumption that the reason we do not see larger forces in the life-or-death struggle is because many more, or a similar number, are not very mobile and guarding against Corsair incursions, Ork invasions, Haradrim pillaging, and Easterling conquest or whatever- maybe they are just like the limitanei of Rome, very immobile.
BTW, I would say that the Rohir agreement with Gondor is similar to the ones given by the Franks as Foederaeti for Rome.
Neithan Turambar



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