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Re: Estimation of Population in Gondor and Minas Tirith | White Council Forum Archive - msg 5048

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Topic: Re: Estimation of Population in Gondor and Minas Tirith    Reply to: msg 5007
Posted: September 17, 1999 at 10:11:49: by Martin Read
: : : Martin, unless I'm doing the math wrong, your 73,500
: : : population for Minas Tirith allows only for 1102.5 men. Even
: : : rounding up, that wouldn't begin to approach the numbers
: : : we've discussed for Minas Tirith in the other thread.

: : : 1.5% of the population does sound about right, however.
: : : Assuming Gondor at the end of the Third Age had about 35,000
: : : soldiers, the population would be around 2,333,333.333333.
: : : For Minas Tirith, if there were 11,000 soldiers stationed
: : : there, the supporting population would in the neighborhood of
: : : 733,333.3333333. This includes not just the city but the
: : : supportive lands as well.

: : : If we assume Gondor had 45,000 soldiers, the overall
: : : population goes up to about 3,000,000.

: : I didn't mark the transition in method of estimation from the
: : whole population to that of MT very well.

: : I think the ratio of army size to total population size is
: : fairly valid but I was not using that for the size of the
: : capital city - the connection between this size and the local
: : forces is less valid.

: : What I did is, once having produced a figure for the total
: : population from the ratio of soldiers to overall population, I
: : compared the overall population of the Byzantine Empire to that
: : predicted for Gondor then simply applied that ratio to the size
: : of Constantinople's population to predict that of Minas T.

: Byzantium/Constantinople, however, was situated in a different position from Minas Tirith. A lot of traffic passed through the city in four directions. The region was a major crossroads. Minas Tirith was not a major crossroads. It was reduced to little more than a border fortress in the last centuries of the Third Age.

: For the significance of this point, see below.

But this argues for an even smaller size (relative to Constantinople) than even I have given it.

MT had some "Nodal point" characteristics it was the only point to cross from north to south of the White Mountains to the west of the great river Anduin. It was also, apparently, the lowest crossing point for the river (Sauron's armies seem to have at least in part waded across as the bridge was ruined), and because of this it was also therefore the highest point navigable by sea-going ships (Harlond).

: : If there is any validity in the ratio of troop numbers to size
: : of capital population it would be between those troops normally
: : stationed around the capital.
: :
: : In the case of Byzantium this would be the numbers of the elite
: : units of the Tagmata which were normally stationed in and
: : around Constantinople. In the 9th century this numbered around
: : 24,000, which with a population of around 250,000 for the city
: : is around 10%. For Minas T (at around 73,000) it would predict
: : a locally stationed force of roughly 7,000 men - who, one might
: : suppose, would represent the elite units of the Gondorian army.

: 7,000 would be too few, however. Again, you're not allowing for previous losses. The reinforcements from the fiefs amounted to maybe 2,700 men. Minas Tirith probably had over 10,000 soldiers before the war started. That would put the city's population (by this methodology) at around 100,000. The population should not suddenly decline correspondingly to the loss of troops in war.

I would have said maybe 7,000 in normal times but higher in times of imminent threat.

: And I doubt all of Minas Tirith's soldiers were "elite" units. Minas Tirith was just not geographically important enough to warrant having only "best" troops as its garrison. The Corsairs were often a problem along the coasts.

As in my geographical argument above - MT is the southernmost point of attack by land forces (Cair Andros was obviosly a more northerly route) from the east. It is also a choke point for movements in a north-south direction. Taken together these characteristics, plus its psychological importance as the capital
would make MT of vital strategic importance. Certainly the southern coasts were also important though one might imagine that their defence would be most effectively undertaken by a naval force with land forces to back them up. Unfortunately we are told nothing of any Gondorian naval abilities at the time of the Ring War.

: : This ratio also works fairly well for an earlier era. In the
: : Late Roman Empire the troops normally stationed close to
: : Constantinople consisted of the Imperial Body Guard - the
: : Scholae of around 3,500, and the two Praesental Armies
: : (commanded by the two "Masters of Soldiers in the Presence [of
: : the Emperor]) which were each of some 21,000 men. A total of
: : around 45,500 troops, compared to a population of c. half a
: : million for Constantinople at the time.

: But do these numbers take into consideration the supporting lands? Typically, a medieval city would be surrouned by up to 250 towns, villages, and smaller cities which would all contribute to the economy and supply of the major city. I don't have figures for the classical world but its estate system should have reduced the number of supporting cities.

As I said I rathr doubt the validity of capital city population to locally stationed troop numbers, and arrived at my 73,000 figure for MT by different means. However, when looking at the Tagmata and praesental armies I was surprised that the ratio seemed to hold fairly well in the two cases I looked at. I am much more happy about the cause and effect relationship between overall population size and overall army size.

: The population of a city is thus only a fraction of the people in the region who would support the local troops. Hence, the 100,000 mark still applies only to the people living within Minas Tirith itself, and not necessarily to the peoples living in the lands around the city.

Given the known expense of land transport in the pre-modern era a large military force in the area of MT would be relatively easily supplied. The apparently rich lands of Anorien (why did Tolkien not show even a single settlement in Anorien?) could move rations down by river using small-craft, and ships could bring produce in from as far away as Pelargir or even Anfalas.




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