: : My question is this:

: : Could orcs be used by the 'good' side, i.e., against Sauron?

: : If so, would they be 'throw away' pawns, a tool foul to the touch that would need to be disposed of or dispersed afterwards? Or would they be treated with respect and 'equality' (as far as such things are reckoned in Tolkien's world), and would that mean that orcs were redeemable?

: : The origin of this query comes from pondering Saruman. What if he had repented of his own accord, and was still captain of all his troops (orcs, half-orcs, humans, and wolves)? What would be done with those troops? Were they loyal to him? Or to the 'cause' of evil?

: : I don't expect any fully formed answers (though they are welcome). Feel free to brainstorm.

: : 'Let the game of wits begin. It ends when we decide who is right... and who is dead.' - the man in black, The Princess Bride

: : Dave C-Q

: Off-hand, I would say that anyone could attempt to use orcs. Whether they were succesfull is something else. Orcish acceptence of a leader appears to be based on the strength, power and what rewards that leader can provide. Old hates were still present in the orcs of the third age. As such, the chance that orcs would follow a dwarvish or elven leader is nill.

: If Saruman had repented, his troops would have probably followed his orders. After all, he still weilded great power in their eyes. One can only guess at the result of a confrontation between the forces of Saruman and those of Sauron. Remember, there was no love lost between the white hand and eye orcs.

: The question of orcish loyalty to evil brings up other questions. Are orcs in the third age, or in general, inherently evil?. Are they only perecieved to evil because they served, willingly or not, as the minions of evil in the past? Left alone and to own devices without good or evil outside influences, would orcs live peacefully with their non-orc neighbors?

On the one hand, an orc, I think will be faithfull to a leader depending upon the reward (as you have stated above). I think one raeson orcs were so faithful to Saruman is because he was "making them" stronger and more resistent by breeding them with men. Plus I'm sure there were other reasons for their loyalt (some pretty human females if they behaved, fir instance).

I'm not sure how they would go about theirlives if left to their own devices, but I guess that they would remain evil. THeir is too little evidence for me. All I can think of are the orcs in Moria and they certainly remained evil although they seemed to have more pride than the slaves of Sauron/Saruman...I'm referring to the Bolg/Azog story.