: Could orcs be used by the 'good' side, i.e., against Sauron?

: If so, would they be 'throw away' pawns, a tool foul to the touch that would need to be disposed of or dispersed afterwards? Or would they be treated with respect and 'equality' (as far as such things are reckoned in Tolkien's world), and would that mean that orcs were redeemable?

: The origin of this query comes from pondering Saruman. What if he had repented of his own accord, and was still captain of all his troops (orcs, half-orcs, humans, and wolves)? What would be done with those troops? Were they loyal to him? Or to the 'cause' of evil?

: I don't expect any fully formed answers (though they are welcome). Feel free to brainstorm.

: 'Let the game of wits begin. It ends when we decide who is right... and who is dead.' - the man in black, The Princess Bride

: Dave C-Q

Excellent questions. I think it finds one of the inherent tensions of Middle Earth that I have never heard adequately explained. *IF* orcs have souls, shouldn't they have the ability to choose between good & evil? I would think that with a soul automatically comes that choice and redeemability. Then, just like there are instances of good & evil in all other races with souls (man, elf, dwarf), there would be examples of good & evil orcs, and they should be accorded the consideration any other race gets. We see the opposite in the books. They are always treated as evil. When the attack at Helm's deep was broken, all the orcs were destroyed, yet the Dunland men were allowed surrender & survived. Of course none of the orcs tried to surrender, but I can't believe they would have been spared if they had.

On the other hand, if they do NOT have souls, then they become simple instruments of evil without any will of their own. The conversation between Gorbag & Shagrat seems to indicate they did have their own wills.

I think that when Sauron fell & the ring was destroyed, the book talks about the evil creatures going bezerk until they were slain by Aragorn's army or by falling into pits or drowning, etc. Is that because they had no will of their own or because they despaired because of Sauron's fall?

If I HAVE to chose a resolution to this I would have to say that orcs & trolls have no souls & are unredeemable. They are in essence what men would be without souls - still able to have some LIMITED thought and will of their own, but in desperate need of some leader to give them a purpose.

"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line." - Vizinni, The Princess Bride (great movie, better book - check it out!)

-Steve S. (not Sicilian)