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Topic: Re: Lond Daer?    Reply to: msg 6631
Posted: November 25, 1999 at 13:39:23: by Michael Martinez
: : the haven could not have been colonized prior to SA 1200,
: : which is when the Numenoreans began making permanent havens
: : in Middle-earth.

: Both you and Fonstad state this but I cannot find the reference
: in UT. Moreover, there must have been a sort of permanent
: garrison at Lond Daer if for nothing else to oversee the
: shipments of timber. Again, since these men had to eat, there
: most likely was some sort of agricultural system in use,
: implying a (semi-) permanent settlement. It is true that in UT
: (p.206) it is stated that the works that Tar Aldarion (SA
: 700-1098) began at Vinyalondë "were never completed" but, as
: Christopher Tolkien points out (UT, p.265) "This probably means
: that no more than that they were never completed by him [i.e.
: Aldarion ]".

The statement that Numenoreans began to make permanent havens in Middle-earth is given in Appendix B to THE LORD OF THE RINGS, "The Tale of Years", year 1200 for the Second Age. "Permanent havens" implies to me that Numenorean families settled in Middle-earth. I have no doubt that seasonal or semi-permanent garrisons lasting for several years could have been founded prior to that time, but no one actually went to LIVE in Middle-earth. No real colonization occurred prior to SA 1200.

: : In Unfinished Tales there is a note where Tolkien writes that
: : in the early days travel between Gondor and Arnor was fastest
: : by ship travelling from Anduin to Tharbad. This seems to
: : imply that Lond Daer Ened was no longer inhabited.

: Actually what he says (p.264) is "The ancient sea-port and its
: great quays were ruinous" which doesn't necessarily mean they
: were in ruins. Logistically speaking, someone must have lived
: there, if only fishermen and merchants.

No, I was referring to the previous sentence in that footnote:


In the early days of the kingdoms the most expeditious route
from one to the other (except for great armaments) was found
to be by sea to the ancient port at the head of the estuary
of the Gwathlo and so to the riverport of Tharbad, and thence
by the Road. The ancient sea-port and its great quays were
ruinous, but with long labour a port capable of receiving
seagoing vessels had been made at Tharbad, and a fort raised
there on great earthworks on both sides of the river, to guard
the once famed Bridge of Tharbad. The ancient port was one
of the earliest ports of the Numenoreans, begun by the renowned
mariner-king Tar-Aldarion, and later enlarged and fortified.
It was called Lond Daer Enedh, the Great Middle Haven (as
being between Lindon in the North and Pelargir on the Anduin).

The passage implies that Tharbad supplanted Lond Daer as a port-of-call for Arnor, and may also imply that Lond Daer was no longer usable. I have inferred from the "ruinous" comment and the description of the widespread destruction inflicted on the coasts of Middle-earth from "Akallabeth" that Lond Daer was essentially destroyed by the catalcysm. I cannot prove this was so, or that the port was no longer used or inhabited under Arnor.

: : Sometime before Elrond retreated to Rivendell, the
: : Numenoreans made a port at Tharbad

: According to Foster (p. 426), Rivendell was founded in 1697 by
: Elrond who "was fleeing from the destruction of Eregion". In UT
: (205-206) , however, it is said that "It seems that when
: Aldarion became King of Númeor in the year 883 [SA] he
: determined to revisit Middle-earth at once, and departed for
: Mithlond either in the same year or the next [and he ] went up
: the Gwathló as far as Tharbad, and there met Galadriel". Ergo,
: Tharbad must have been founded in the years immediately
: following the foundation of Lond Daer (some time between 750
: and 875 SA).

Not necessarily. And Foster is incorrect about when Rivendell was founded, btw. The official "founding" occurred in 1701. The refuge founded in 1697 was only temporary.

But we don't know who or what was living at Tharbad (if anyone) when Aldarion met Galadriel there, and there appear to have been no Numenorean constructions in the region at the time (there is no mention of any work there). Tharbad was close to Eregion, however, and if the bridge was not a Numenorean work then it was probably an Elvish/Dwarven construction. So it may have been an Elven town to begin with.

Tolkien says that Tharbad was "only lightly held" when Sauron brought reinforcements through it in his description of the War of the Elves and Sauron, but he doesn't say held by whom and I'm not sure of to whom he was referring. Ciryatur's southern force set ashore at Vinyalonde and apparently marched upriver along the south shore to attack Sauron at Tharbad after he had been driven back there by Gil-galad and the main Numenorean army from Lindon.

: : One attempt was made to recolonize Cardolan (sometime in the
: : 1800s), but by then the barrow-wights had settled in Tyrn
: : Gorthad and the colonists were too terrified to remain
: : nearby, so the attempt failed

: If Cardolan corresponds roughly to Minhiriath, I don't
: understand how Tyrn Gorthad could have affected any settlement
: south-west of the North-South Road.

Minhiriath consisted only of the lands between the Gwathlo and the Baranduin (the name means "between the rivers") but Cardolan extended beyond Minhiriath to include the South Downs, the Old Forest, and Tyrn Gorthad. I suspect that Araval's recolonization attempt was concentrated in Tyrn Gorthad. You may recall from "Fog on the Barrow-downs" that there were old ruins in Tyrn Gorthad -- the Dunedain had once had towns or fotresses there. Being close to Bree, the region would have been just within the scope of Arnor's economic and military spheres, and it would have had access via the Great Road to the Shire, Lindon, and Ered Luin.
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