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Re: a question of RINGS | White Council Forum Archive - msg 7399

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Topic: Re: a question of RINGS    Reply to: msg 7391
Posted: December 27, 1999 at 00:18:08: by Michael Martinez
: Thirdly, the part about the spirit leaving the physical form -
: I hope you don't mean that when Frodo put on the ring that i
: abandoned his physical form?? Remember at Parth Galen where I
: puts a invinsible arm out and grabed Sam. It seems very strange
: to me if you were able to that if you had left your physical
: shape - I might be misunderstanding - or limited by
: narrowmindedness, please comment.

No, that is not what I mean. I don't actually mean ANYTHING, in that Tolkien doesn't really explain the phenomenon. It may be one of those things he felt was best left a mystery or enigma, or it may be that no one ever thought to ask him.

When I say I think Tolkien had "aspects" of the world, I'm trying to encapsulate a lot of different (and often unrelated) writings which all seem to reveal something of the nature of the Ainur, Elves, Men, and Ea in general.

The Ainur were spirits, non-corporeal beings, in their beginning. However, in their existence with Iluvatar in the Timeless Halls they had some sort of "substance" which would not be the same as our physical bodies. The physical universe did not yet exist. But the Ainur (and Iluvatar) existed. The fact of their existence implies they were possessed of SOMETHING, though I cannot name that SOMETHING in any comprehensible way. Call it "spirit-stuff".

This "spirit-stuff", then, entered Ea when the Valar entered it. It was the essence of their beings. Tolkien occasionally speaks of the native or inherent "strength" of the Ainur -- such as when he discusses Melkor's power, and Sauron's power as it was externalized in the One Ring. I equate this "spirit-stuff" (which was in some way FINITE, but perhaps not by any measurement comparable to physical measurements) with that strength or power, but it was not the WILL of the beings. The WILL is separate from the spirit-stuff, or perhaps is composed of only part of it (or perhaps the WILL is expressed through the spirit-stuff).

Nonetheless, this spirit-stuff exists within Ea, the physical universe. It is not itself "physical" -- it does not have volume, or shape according to physical measurement, but it can mirror or emulate shape within the physical aspect of reality. It is perceivable according to the rationale of the physical world, so as to leave the Incarnate mind sensible. Hence, it's like a shadow of physical reality (and I use the word "shadow" as I believe Tolkien may have used it). Perhaps there is a bit of Platonian philosophy attached to Tolkien's conception of Ea.

When the Valar decided to "take shape", then they literally (through the force of their great wills) bound physical matter into forms which they attached themselves to. Tolkien says they became Self-Incarnated, but I believe he means that they somehow bound their spirits (their wills and "spirit-stuff") to these physical forms. The binding or attachment would be like a sub-conscious act, not requiring conscious thought to maintain. But the Self-Incarnate could divorce themselves from their physical shapes at will (perhaps with some effort) without harming or weakening themselves.

When Iluvatar sent the spirits of Men, Elves, Eagles, Ents, etc. into Ea, these would be similarly composed of "will" and "spirit-stuff", but they were smaller than the Ainur -- weaker. And their binding of body and soul, physical incarnation and spirit, would not be of their own devising, but of Iluvatar's. Hence, they could not so easily divorce themselves from their bodies (although they could ultimately do this). And the act of divorce of spirit and body would be irrevocable, insofar as the will and spirit were powerless to reverse the process. That is why the Elves are dependent upon the Valar for re-embodiment.

Now, the question is, what happens when someone dons a Ring of Power which renders them "invisible". Invisibility is simply a state of existing while not being seen. Being invisible doesn't mean one is intangible. But in fact if one remained invisible too long, one would fade and become a wraith. A wraith seems to be only the will and spirit-stuff, without the body.


I have to get offline. A family emergency has just developed. I hope that makes sense as far as it goes. I'll try to pick up where I left off when I come back, but that may be a couple of days from now.
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