Heroism... | White Council Forum Archive - msg 7503

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Heroism... | White Council Forum Archive - msg 7503

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Topic: Heroism...
Reply to: Message 7500
Posted: December 31, 1999 at 10:18:29: by Dave C-Q
:
: Snip
: : Heroism is defined not by just the deed but rather the commitment to the act in the face of overwelming odds.
: Very well put, and I believe that Tolkien himself would have agreed with this definition of heroism - giving up one's personal ambitions in pursuit of common good, acknowledging one's strength and wisdom etc. is not enough, but still endeavouring to give all one's got, not asking the cost (like being brave doesn't mean knowing no fear but rather going on in spite of fear).
: Kadri

Not so fast. That's a pretty standard definition, and Tolkien never let things go so easily.

Were the Noldor heroic?

Take Fingolfin. (Someone mentioned him above.) Sure. Rides to take on Morgoth Mano a Mano, after seeing his people slaughtered. Pretty heroic, right?

Well. Why were the Noldor there in the first place? Didn't they go to M-E in pride and arrogance, chafing under the tutelage of the Valar? So they go to M-E to carve out realms and kingdoms, and to make war upon the greatest of the Valar.

Really. What were they thinking. Is that really heroic? And when the whirlwind was reaped, and the Noldor lay slaughtered upon the field because of their pride, their king goes off and gets himself killed in a suicide run (because his leadership had brought them to this pass).

Is that really heroic?

In essence, if this is our definition of heroism (that heroism is doing the right thing and trying to succeed, no matter what the costs or consequences), then nothing in the Silmarillion is heroic (except perhaps the Edain, who were caught up in a historical struggle beyond their control and just did their best; but even then, perhaps the truly heroic thing would have been to renounce the Eldar, who were fighting a futile, bloody, and pointless war (for jewels?!?!?!).

But of course, there were "heroes" in the Silm. Therefore, heroism has to be something else. (And yes, I was being overly harsh on Fingolfin; but I was trying to make a point. ;) )

In considering Gollum, we might look to one of the greatest First Age heroes: Turin Turambar. There are actually quite a good number of similarities. Both were victims of powers beyond their control (or indeed their comprehension) - Gollum, the ring; and Turin, the curse of Morgoth. Both attempted to resist their "fates" (for lack of a better word). And both failed. Both had the benefit of living among the elves, but both chose to spurn this hospitality (and in this respect, Turin comes out worse than Gollum, for Gollum was a prisoner, while Turin was cared for as the king's own son). And both committed quite a good number of evil deeds, including thievery and murder.

And yet, in people's minds, there ususally is no question that Turin is a hero. While Gollum is undoubtedly evil...pitiable, but still evil.

Why is this? With Turin, a lot of his evil can be explained away as "Hey, he was doing his best to escape his terrible Doom. He was essentially powerless to do anything else. He did what he could, and some good ended up as a result." But that same line of reasoning can be essentially applied to Gollum as well.

Gollum did not want any part of the great deeds of the war of the ring. He did not want fame or fortune. He did not want to rule the world with the precious. He simply wanted to be left alone, happy and miserable in the darkness with his precious (arguably much more noble than the motives of the Noldor of the first age). He was in the ring's power, he *needed* the ring, so he searched for it; he could do nothing else. He did what he could, and some good ended up as a result (and arguably a much greater good than in Turin's case).

Just food for thought.

Cheers.

Dave C-Q

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