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Re: Herumor revisited | White Council Forum Archive - msg 7590

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Topic: Re: Herumor revisited    Reply to: msg 7579
Posted: January 05, 19100 at 07:48:36: by Frode
: : I have been thinking a bit about the Herumor of 'the new
: : shadow' and I'm not sure it's valid to conclude that Herumor
: : was a lord of 4th age Gondor.

: : Michael concludes that revolutionary plots comes from within a
: : culture not from without, but this does not adress the most
: : interesting part of Tolkiens letter....the mention of a
: : satanistic religion and the specific mention of an OLD evil in
: : the actual text. Clearly the 'new shadow' is linked to Saurons
: : 'old evil' and the mouth of Sauron could very well be such a
: : link (and Herumor MIGHT be his name)...

: You cannot say "Clearly" with justification. There is nothing to tie the fact that the NEW SHADOW is tied with Sauron's "old evil" to the speculation that the Mouth of Sauron might have been Sauron.

'Clearly' was obviously a bad choice of words. As far as 'the new shadow' is concerned there is mention of a recognisable 'old evil' in the text. It's not specified that this is Saurons evil, but it is one possible explanation.

: The Mouth was more than likely long dead by the time of the NEW SHADOW. He would have to have outlived Aragorn, and that doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean here. If you mean that the mouth of Sauron could not live that long after the fall of Sauron I agree that this is a point to consider. However the man had obviously lived for centuries before the WR, indeed so long as to forget his name. This he must have done either through the arts of Sauron or/and through his own potent arts (he is skilled we are told). By the WR he had already lived far longer than Aragorn would ever do.

: : ...I have more problems with another point however. For the
: : mouth of Sauron could not remember his old name so how could
: : anyone else remember it?

: "Herumor" could just be a nickname, a sobriquet as some fancy people put it. :)

This seems possible (especially considering the information below), but since it is the name of a significant black numenorean from the past it's also possible that the name is no coincidence or sobriquet :)

: It means, after all, "Dark Lord".

This was really interesting! I noticed the element 'mor', but didn't know the full meaning of the name.

: : All in all however I can't dismiss easily the theory that
: : Herumor is the mouth of Sauron. It remains pure speculation,
: : but it is an interesting possibility.

: I don't consider it to be very possible at all. There is no evidence to indicate the Mouth had an extremely long life, that he survived the Downfall of Sauron, or that he was in anyway connected with the mysterious Herumor.

All true though IMO the text in LotR indicates that he had lived a very long time. I wouldn't say I consider it VERY possible either, but I must say it's interesting to consider.

: I think it more likely that Herumor would have turned out to be a member of an old Gondorian family, perhaps the House of the Stewards or the Lords of Dol Amroth, somewhat like Darth Sidious is Senator/Supreme Chancellor Palpatine in the STAR WARS universe.

: Tolkien's letter seems to imply the revolutionary plots are tied to the Satanic religion, which would probably have been based on necromancy (which Tolkien wrote about late in his life).





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