: : : In Tolkien evil has a purpose. And so it is with our world. How would we know goodness if there were nothing bad or rotten? How could we be drawn nearer to the numinous and ineffable without "heats and fires without restraint"?

: : The argument that we can only know we are happy by suffering is nonsensical to me. I'm happy my parents are alive and don't need them to die to make me realize it. From a religious point of view it makes God and Evil equal partners in the creation, which I must reject. I don't need to eat a bar of soap to know that I enjoy ice cream.

: This is spurious, you need to eat ice cream to know that you like ice cream, consequently you would need to eat soap to know that it is not good to eat (unless of course you believe everything you are told .. and then what would happen if somebody told you palmolive flavoured pizzas were superb eating?)

I agree. That was my point. Eating soap does not tell me anything about ice cream, in the same way that suffering evil does not tell me anything about good.

: : The yin/yang concept has been used for centuries to try and explain the good and bad in our lives, but when I look at small children cavorting happily (and they seem to know they're happy), who have never suffered, it brings the whole concept into question.

: The happiness of the ignorant or innocent or stupid or mad argument. I'd rather look at the world through open eyes.

I too keep my eyes open, not because I want to, but because there are unscrupulous folks who take advantage of the innocent. But if we are talking about the nature of Evil and Good, then I think it is important to separate happiness and unhappiness from the topic. I can envision times that I have done the morally correct thing, but not being happy about it. Finding a large sum of money and giving it back to the rightful owner is a case in point. Being good doesn't insure happiness - at least not always. And I've done wrong, but enjoyed it immensely. So happy cavorting children may not have been the best example I could have used, though I still maintain that I don't need to experience unhappiness to know happiness. I will say that sometimes bad events make us appreciate more the good things in our lives, but I find no evidence to suggest that I wouldn't recognize a good thing if I didn't experience the bad or had no knowledge of evil.

: : That's only my opinion of course, and I don't want to come across as being disrespectful to others who hold different beliefs, but it is difficult to describe one's own beliefs without contradicting the beliefs of another.

: No disrespect taken of course, and hopefully none given, not intended anyway.

None taken, and I'm enjoying our discussion. Your points are well taken and help me to crystalize what I'm trying to say. I haven't made the bewst argument yet because the words I want haven't come to me yet. I guess I should pick up a book or two on this topic and see what the philosophers have said. It's been a while since reading any cosmological or ontological arguments. But if Tolkien's book leads to me (or anyone) improving their minds by doing further research on these kinds of questions, then his writings are well worth reading.