: : : : In Tolkien evil has a purpose. And so it is with our world. How would we know goodness if there were nothing bad or rotten? How could we be drawn nearer to the numinous and ineffable without "heats and fires without restraint"?

Why would we need to know goodness if there was not evil, or badness? Goodness would just be, hence, we would be in communion with the ineffable.

: None taken, and I'm enjoying our discussion. Your points are well taken and help me to crystalize what I'm trying to say. I haven't made the bewst argument yet because the words I want haven't come to me yet. I guess I should pick up a book or two on this topic and see what the philosophers have said. It's been a while since reading any cosmological or ontological arguments. But if Tolkien's book leads to me (or anyone) improving their minds by doing further research on these kinds of questions, then his writings are well worth reading.

Here's one of my favorite arguments---C.S. Lewis shows why badness is dependant on goodness, therefore inferior to it. Consider this passage from "Mere Christianity;" "...wickedness, when you examine it, turns out to be the pursuit of some good in the wrong way. You can be good for the mere sake of goodness: you cannot be bad for the mere sake of badness." He goes on to say "...badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself: badness is only spoiled goodness. And there must be something good first before it can be spoiled."