: Thingol is slain and "his realm is ended" (he can't have a
: realm, ie kingdom or influence, he is dead). However it does
: not say destroyed, the land and people (and possibly the Queen,
: see below) are still there thus Dior can "...recover [ie
: regain something that is yours] the realm of Thingol." Note
: that in both the 'C' and 'D1' versions that the realm is still
: referred to as Thingol's even though he is dead; the Kingdom
: itself is still there.

The kingdom no longer exists. You can't require Tolkien to say "the realm is destroyed", it's his choice how to phrase the description of the end of Doriath. Dior was no more Thingol's legal successor than Charlemagne was the legal successor of Romulus Augustus. Nowhere does Tolkien refer to Dior as Thingol's successor (in any way). He says that Dior reestablished the realm, or that he restored it. The kingdom did not exist, could not exist, if it was in fact going to be reestablished and/or restored.

: : : But what JRRT says is that Dior is Eluchil, Thingols Heir
: : : (and we all know how exacting JRRT was in his choice of
: : : names).

: : I don't follow you. The name doesn't imply any legal
: : designation.

: I think we both accept that Dior is referred to in any number
: of instances as "Thingol's heir"("...Elwing ... was the
: daughter of Dior, Thingol's heir"; "I am also the heir of King
: Elwe...". Note that in the first instance the designation is
: descriptive of function, not being used as a name.) The
: definition of heir is: "1.a person who inherits or is legally
: entitled to inherit another's property or title upon the
: other's death. 2.anyone who inherits any part of another's
: property, either by the provisions of a will or by the natural
: action of the law." Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictinary,
: Unabridged 2nd Edition.

"Heir" has more meaning than that. Was Aragorn king of Gondor when he entered the story? Nope. And yet he was Elendil's Heir. If the Heir of Elendil is not a king, then how can the Heir of Thingol be a king? It's an entirely different situation from when a king dies and his son or grandson succeeds him. The kingdom is not ended, the new king doesn't restore or reestablish the realm. It goes on.

: : There is no evidence to support the contention that Dior
: : INHERITED anything from Thingol. He was not summoned to
: : Doriath, he went to reestablish the kingdom of Thingol. And
: : we don't know if Melian sent messages. The story in THE
: : SILMARILLION is completely bogus.
:

: You may deny THE SILMARILLION so I will quote from the HoME
: Tale of Years in the War of the Jewels. First the 'C' version
: which you are referring to above when you state Dior
: re-established Thingol's realm: " 503 ...Melian escaped and
: carried off the Nauglamir and the Silmaril and brought it to
: Beren and Luthien."

It doesn't change the fact that Tolkien shows the kingdom was destroyed and that Dior reestablished it. He did not succeed Thingol as king of Doriath. There was no Doriath to be king of until Dior reestablished it.

: : : I am curious as to what leads you to think that no
: : : legitimate inheritance can pass through the female line? I
: : : dont think you have actually stated what leads you to that
: : : belief.:)

: : I haven't stated that particular belief.
: snip

: In the Gil-galad thread started on 12/20/99 you stated: "Elrond
: was not a descendant of Finwe through any male line. The High
: Kingship had to end with Gilgalad because there were no other
: male line descendants of Finwe left in Middle-earth."
: I think this implies that your interpretation of the books is
: that to inherit a kingship you must be of male line descent.

First of all, that's a far cry from saying "no legitimate inheritance can pass through the female line." In fact, the Silmaril DID pass through the female line (to Elwing).

But one need only look at who the rulers of the Noldor were to see that the High Kingship never became a High Queenship. For whatever reason, only male descendants of Finwe through the male lines could claim the title of High King (or High whatever).

: One more question: by your definition did Feanor inherit
: Kingship from Finwe, did Fingon inherit from Fingolfin and
: Turgon from Fingon and Erienion Gil-galad from Turgon?

"my definition"? You're dragging this to a dangerously personal level and that is COMPLETELY unnecessary.

Feanor was the eldest son of Finwe. He was indisputably Finwe's heir in Aman. When he left, Finarfin was chosen to be king of the Noldor in Aman.

Maedhros was Feanor's eldest son and when Feanor died the kingship indisputably passed to Maedhros. Maedhros then abidicated to Fingolfin when the Noldor were reunited in Middle-earth.

From that time onward, no descendant of Feanor could claim the kingship over all the Noldor, although Maedhros eventually established his own kingdom (Tolkien refers to Maedhros as a king later on).

When Fingolfin died the kingship passed to his elder son Fingon. When Fingon died the kingship passed to his brother Turgon. When Turgon died the male line from Fingolfin ended and the kingship passed to Gil-galad, who was the last male line descendant of Finwe in Middle-earth, and a descendant of Finarfin. Galadriel was clearly passed over.

Given these facts, how many conclusions should we be able to reach, except that the kingship was passed only to male line descendants?
------------------
Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy