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Topic: Re: On Sauron's Fate    Reply to: msg 8176
Posted: January 24, 2000 at 15:40:13: by Dave C-Q
: Gandalf said he was so weakened that he was unable to ever assume any kind of form again and became shadow or spirit of malice gnawing away at itself. In the Silmarillion it is mentioned that he followed Melkor down the same ruinous path into the Void. These two statements seem to contradict each other unless after his weakening he was, in fact, cast into the Void w/ his master.

Well, I think Tolkien pretty much has it that Sauron was thrust out into the Void with his master, Morgoth. But the problem comes up when you ask when this happened. One can speculate that other Maia, or the Valar themselves, came to M-E unclothed to snatch Sauron and throw him out of the Halls of Ea. Or else (and this is more likely) his whithered spirit was called to the Undying Lands and Sauron had no will or power to refuse, and then was thrown out.

Or (and this is more a metaphysical inquiry, than a textual one) one could speculate that the loss of power that Sauron undergoes *is* what places him in the Void. That is, perhaps "the Void" is not a place, but a state of (null) existence; being utterly powerless *is* being "in the Void," and the only way the Valar could explain it, or the elves could comprehend it, was to say they (Morgoth and Sauron) were physically thrust outside of the Halls of Ea (Existence).

Why would someone (i.e., me) come up with this complicated metaphysical theory? Well, it's a simple question of definitions (and physics). This "place" is called "the Void." Void obviously means a vaccuum of nothingness. Not a vaccuum in the sense that outer space is. Tolkien quite clearly states that this "place" lies outside Existence, the Halls of Ea. Arda (Earth, which includes Middle-earth and the Undying Lands) was concieved of as one place within these vast and unending Halls; this implies that there were others (though that is up for debate, Tolkien never wrote about or mentions anything else; and it's besides the point anyway). Therefore, "the Void" is not "outer space," but something else.

Yet it *is* a Void (because we are told that), a place where nothing is. Problem: Morgoth is there. And then Sauron. If Morgoth is there, then it's not really a void anymore, is it? In effect, the Void ceases to exist once Morgoth enters it. So Sauron *can't* be put there. And yet we are told that he is. The solution is that the Void is not a place in the sense of a physical space, but rather an incomprehensible state of hellish quasi-sub-non-existence. In that sense, both Morgoth and Sauron are in the Void, but not together, both separate, alone, and cold.

... Hmmm... What do you think? Any textual evidence that I forgot? Hole in my metaphysics? Let me know. (And yes, I *am* bored at work ;). )

Cheers.

Dave C-Q



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