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Topic: Tuor and Idril (was Re: Thingol and Melian)    Reply to: msg 8348
Posted: January 27, 2000 at 00:51:16: by Dave C-Q
: Look at it this way:

: Her true love had "died"; he would be back, but not for the
next thousand years or so! That is one LONG wait, I'll tell you!
Besides, things would not be the same; never again would they be
the King and Queen of Beleriand, as they used to be... Things had
changed, the world had changed, and they would not see their
daughter Luthien again before the end of the world.

: Another question though: Did Melian go straight to Aman? I
guess Aman might not be shut to her, only to Elves and Men, and
maybe she didn't even travel there in her physical body.

Apparently, she may have gone to Ossiriand to give the news to
Dior, who was Thingol's Heir. Check the archives for the recent
discussion on that topic.

: But, a bit at the side of the subject, didn't also Tuor and
Idril go to Aman before Earlendil? Or did they die trying to get
there? I have been curious about this for some time, I hope
someone can help me out...

Well, in the Silmarillion, the last mention of Tuor and Idril
states that they tried to sail west, but that it wasn't yet time.
They never made it through the Shadowy Seas. There is a little
line that says [paraphrase] "and in after days, Tuor was counted
among the Noldor whom he loved, and his fate was sundered from
the fate of men." Some read this to mean that Tuor literally
became a Noldorin elf, and spent the rest of his days in Aman
with Idril and Earendil. (The proponents of this idea say that
either they did arrive in Aman, but couldn't see the Valar
because they didn't have the Silmaril, or that they must have
arrived in Aman after the veil of shadows on the ocean was
lifted, meaning they were at sea for many, many years.)

As you can probably tell, I don't agree with this interpretation.
Why? Well, the main reason is because, in Tolkien's world, it is
flatly impossible for a Man to become and Elf. Only Eru could
accomplish such a task, and for the Valar to ask Eru to do this
would be effectively to abandon their claim to rule Arda (i.e.,
to admit that they cannot cope with the consequences of history).
The second reason is because both proposals for their arrival in
Aman seem absurd to me: that they arrived before Earendil is just
silly; and that they would have been sailing years and years and
then just shown up in Alqualonde is just bizarre.

But the statement in the Silmarillion *is* intriguing. What does
"counted among the Noldor" mean, if not that he was an elf? And
what does it mean that "he fate is separated from the fate of
Men," if not that he didn't die in the way other Men do?

I have my own solution to this enigma, but it is just that--my
own. There is no textual evidence for my theory, as far as I
know. I dreamt this scenario up years ago, after the Unfinished
Tales came out, and I read the dark hints in there about the
Dagor Dagorath. I pieced together the Tuor enigma with these
hints, and with the bits in the Ainulindale that mention the end
of the world, and came up with this:

"When Tuor and Idril attempted to sail through the Shadowy Seas,
they ran aground during a storm. They came to shore on one of the
Enchanted Isles. Death from the sea, or from the storms, or from
hunger or madness was usually the fate of those unlucky enough to
run aground on the Enchanted Isles. But pity overcame Ulmo, the
Lord of the Waters, and remembrance of the service of Tuor, and
of the vigilance of Idril, whereby her people were saved. And
Ulmo laid an enchantment on the two so that they slept, and upon
the isle so that none should ever find it. In later days, when
the world was remade after the transgression of the Numenoreans,
the isle was lifted up and removed from the circles of the world
and placed upon the Straight Path. There lie Tuor son of Huor and
Idril Celebrindal, man and elf, between the Mortal Lands and the
Undying, until the end of days. And among the Noldor, Tuor is
held in high renown and given a place of honor among the princes
of the First Age of Middle-earth.

"Among those deep in the lore of the Valar, some whisper that
when the final battle comes between Morgoth and Manwe, and all
the armies of the world, then Tuor and Idril will awake, and come
again to the service of Ulmo, whom they love. But in what manner
they will come, and what aid they will bring, Mandos does not
say."

So that's my own personal take. That Tuor and Idril sleep
forever, halfway between the undying lands and the mortal lands
(poetic, eh?), until Armageddon, in which they will play some
unspecified but probably important role. I think it works in
Tolkien's mythology quite seemlessly. It solves the "his fate is
sundered from the fate of men" conundrum (he doesn't "die" in the
same way others Men do), as well as the "counted among the
Noldor" one (he is simple and literally "counted" or listed among
the Noldorin heroes). And it is quite poetic in the placement of
T & I in between mortal and immortal lands. And it evokes enough
of a mystery to not solve the whole thing. Very in line with
JRRT, if I may be so bold.

Others however will disagree with me. Rightfully so. This is my
own hypothesis, and I make no claim of textual veracity. I simply
think it works, and fills in some blanks (and creates some new
ones). Others could devise other scenarios which work just as
well (or better, or worse).

Still, I would like to know wha



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