: : Her true love had "died"; he would be back, but not for the
: next thousand years or so! That is one LONG wait, I'll tell you!
: Besides, things would not be the same; never again would they be
: the King and Queen of Beleriand, as they used to be... Things had
: changed, the world had changed, and they would not see their
: daughter Luthien again before the end of the world.

: : Another question though: Did Melian go straight to Aman? I
: guess Aman might not be shut to her, only to Elves and Men, and
: maybe she didn't even travel there in her physical body.

: Apparently, she may have gone to Ossiriand to give the news to
: Dior, who was Thingol's Heir. Check the archives for the recent
: discussion on that topic.

: : But, a bit at the side of the subject, didn't also Tuor and
: Idril go to Aman before Earlendil? Or did they die trying to get
: there? I have been curious about this for some time, I hope
: someone can help me out...

: Well, in the Silmarillion, the last mention of Tuor and Idril
: states that they tried to sail west, but that it wasn't yet time.
: They never made it through the Shadowy Seas. There is a little
: line that says [paraphrase] "and in after days, Tuor was counted
: among the Noldor whom he loved, and his fate was sundered from
: the fate of men." Some read this to mean that Tuor literally
: became a Noldorin elf, and spent the rest of his days in Aman
: with Idril and Earendil. (The proponents of this idea say that
: either they did arrive in Aman, but couldn't see the Valar
: because they didn't have the Silmaril, or that they must have
: arrived in Aman after the veil of shadows on the ocean was
: lifted, meaning they were at sea for many, many years.)

: As you can probably tell, I don't agree with this interpretation.
: Why? Well, the main reason is because, in Tolkien's world, it is
: flatly impossible for a Man to become and Elf. Only Eru could
: accomplish such a task, and for the Valar to ask Eru to do this
: would be effectively to abandon their claim to rule Arda (i.e.,
: to admit that they cannot cope with the consequences of history).
: The second reason is because both proposals for their arrival in
: Aman seem absurd to me: that they arrived before Earendil is just
: silly; and that they would have been sailing years and years and
: then just shown up in Alqualonde is just bizarre.

: But the statement in the Silmarillion *is* intriguing. What does
: "counted among the Noldor" mean, if not that he was an elf? And
: what does it mean that "he fate is separated from the fate of
: Men," if not that he didn't die in the way other Men do?

I have seen a similar thread discussing this issue. Beren and Luthien were an exception, one not likely to be repeated with respect to the changing of races (if both Beren and Luthien returned to Beleriand as men, then how can Dior and his descendents be deemed half-elven? -- off point but something I've often wondered). The half-elven required an elegant solution by the Valar, i.e. the election of one's fate. But Tuor was not half-elven and Tolkien's writings support your position that Tuor could not become elven. I recall from somewhere that the Valar were powerless to act in avoidance of the fate of man. Tuor was at best an "honorary" mmember of the Noldor.

: I have my own solution to this enigma, but it is just that--my
: own. There is no textual evidence for my theory, as far as I
: know. I dreamt this scenario up years ago, after the Unfinished
: Tales came out, and I read the dark hints in there about the
: Dagor Dagorath. I pieced together the Tuor enigma with these
: hints, and with the bits in the Ainulindale that mention the end
: of the world, and came up with this:

: "When Tuor and Idril attempted to sail through the Shadowy Seas,
: they ran aground during a storm. They came to shore on one of the
: Enchanted Isles. Death from the sea, or from the storms, or from
: hunger or madness was usually the fate of those unlucky enough to
: run aground on the Enchanted Isles. But pity overcame Ulmo, the
: Lord of the Waters, and remembrance of the service of Tuor, and
: of the vigilance of Idril, whereby her people were saved. And
: Ulmo laid an enchantment on the two so that they slept, and upon
: the isle so that none should ever find it. In later days, when
: the world was remade after the transgression of the Numenoreans,
: the isle was lifted up and removed from the circles of the world
: and placed upon the Straight Path. There lie Tuor son of Huor and
: Idril Celebrindal, man and elf, between the Mortal Lands and the
: Undying, until the end of days. And among the Noldor, Tuor is
: held in high renown and given a place of honor among the princes
: of the First Age of Middle-earth.

: "Among those deep in the lore of the Valar, some whisper that
: when the final battle comes between Morgoth and Manwe, and all
: the armies of the world, then Tuor and Idril will awake, and come
: again to the service of Ulmo, whom they love. But in what manner
: they will come, and what aid they will bring, Mandos does not
: say."

I like your solution, and also thought of something similar. Tuor and Idril couldn't reach Aman. Only one, "the greatest mariner" could avoid the hiding of Valinor -- Earendil. If they couldn't reach the Undying Lands, then they either wrecked and died or became ensnared in the Shadowy Isles. What I don't recall is if those so ensnared slept until the change in the world or until its end.

: So that's my own personal take. That Tuor and Idril sleep
: forever, halfway between the undying lands and the mortal lands
: (poetic, eh?), until Armageddon, in which they will play some
: unspecified but probably important role. I think it works in
: Tolkien's mythology quite seemlessly. It solves the "his fate is
: sundered from the fate of men" conundrum (he doesn't "die" in the
: same way others Men do), as well as the "counted among the
: Noldor" one (he is simple and literally "counted" or listed among
: the Noldorin heroes). And it is quite poetic in the placement of
: T & I in between mortal and immortal lands. And it evokes enough
: of a mystery to not solve the whole thing. Very in line with
: JRRT, if I may be so bold.

: Others however will disagree with me. Rightfully so. This is my
: own hypothesis, and I make no claim of textual veracity. I simply
: think it works, and fills in some blanks (and creates some new
: ones). Others could devise other scenarios which work just as
: well (or better, or worse).

: Still, I would like to know wha