Posted: January 27, 2000 at 17:40:45: by Michael Martinez
: : : : The problem with assuming that Elwe and Olwe were second
: : : : generation, however, is that there is no opportunity for
: : : : them to have cousins (kinsmen) such as Cirdan and Eol (if
: : : : Eol was indeed supposed to be their kinsman -- he keeps
: : : : popping in and out of the family tree).: : : Again, could not kinsman (not necessarily cousin) of Elwe
: : : mean any one of the following: : : : 1) grandson of Olwe? (he had many children, according to
: : : HoME,V10); & Cirdan was not necessarily born at Cuivienen. : : Yes, but Cirdan was definitely alive during the Great
: : Journey. It seems highly unlikely he was the son or grandson
: : of Olwe (and Voronwe's mother was Cirdan's kinswoman, so
: : there is another level of complexity which must be dealt
: : with). : Why is it so difficult to believe a 4th generation Elf could be
: born on the Great Journey, when a 3rd generation can so easily
: rise to prominence before the March??? There is no mention of the Elves having children during the Great Journey. There may be some obscure passage where Tolkien said they didn't have children, although my memory concerning that is vague (and therefore may be false).
: : : 4) silver-haired member of the Lindar (Teleri)????
: : : 5) simply a member of the Lindar?????
: : Christopher suggests that only the family of Elwe had silver
: : hair. : Christopher?... suggests??... C'mon. He is sometimes wrong, but there is no reason to assume he is wrong unless he points out some error on his part. However, in this case, it appears that I am in error. JRRT himself made the suggestion, and I only vaguely recalled it. It appears on page 384 of THE WAR OF THE JEWELS in "Quendi and Eldar":
Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in
Exilic Quenya. This was the nae given by the Exiled Noldor
(see Note 11) to the second largest of the divisions of the
Eldar. (Note 16, p. 412) It was applied to all the Elves of
Telerin origin that the Noldor found in Beleriand, though it
later excluded the Nandor, except those who were direct subjects
of Elwe, or had become merged with his people. The name meant
'the Grey', or 'the Grey-elves', and was derived from *THIN,
PQ *thindi 'grey, pale or silvery grey', Q thinde,
N dialect sinde.
Note: "thinde" in the last line used an Anglo-Saxon character that looks like a sort of "p" and is called a "thorn", I think, and is pronounced like the "th" in "think" or "thought".
On the origin of this name see Note 11. The Loremasters also
supposed that reference was made to the hair of the Sindar.
Elwe himself indeed had long and beautiful hair of silver hue,
but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the
Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially
in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan).
In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled
the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;
for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed
those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which
reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.
: : : None of which void the possibility of 2nd generation for
: : : Elwe & brothers. : : Why is it so important for them to be 2nd generation Elves? : Well, its NOT, as I mentioned previously. But it IS the whole
: premise of my debate. I'm attempting to rationalize the
: possibility (I think, *probability*), that the 3 ambassadors
: were the eldest sons of the 3 Elf-fathers. I do this, taking
: into consideration the great tradition of Elves concerning
: blood, eldest sons, heirs, and power & respect. Okay, I see your point now. It's an interesting idea, but I'm afraid it doesn't really leave room for Cirdan and his kinswoman in the family tree for Enel. I think you are referring to Section 10 of "Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor" in MORGOTH'S RING when you speak of Olwe's having many children. Finwe's complaint is that "Ingwe and Olwe beget many children in the bliss of Aman." Since Cirdan was not born in Aman, he could not be a descendant of Olwe. Hence, Elwe, Olwe (, and Elmo) HAVE to be at least third-generation Elves, or else Cirdan is a kinsman by marriage (i.e., related to the wife of either Olwe or Elmo) who just happens to share the silver hair that is rare among the Sindar (but the implication of Tolkien's passage is that he inherited the trait from a mutual ancestor). : : : : Tolkien doesn't say WHY the ambassadors were chosen.
: : : : Orome may have taken the only three guys willing to ride
: : : : with him (or whatever) to the ends of the world. : "3 of the Eldar came forward daring to go" (LT1) THE BOOK OF LOST TALES really doesn't apply. That was a completely different world and mythology. Tolkien reused the themes of various stories, that is true, but Tolkien didn't carry forward this idea into the new mythology that became "Quenta Silmarillion". In fact, for a while, Ingwe became the first Elf to awaken at Cuivienen in the new mythology (Cf. "The Lhammas" in THE LOST ROAD AND OTHER WRITINGS), but this idea was later abandoned (among other ideas, such as Elwe's originally having long, white hair). So, although it is reasonable to guess that Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe may have been chosen for their courage, we cannot be sure that is what Tolkien intended for the leaders of "Quenta Silmarillion". [snip] : : Some of the Elves had died and some had disappeared. And THE
: : WAR OF THE JEWELS doesn't say that Elwe and Olwe were the
: : only chieftains among the Nelyar. It merely says that when
: : these two chieftains were resolved to depart, many of the
: : Nelyar were persuaded to take the journey after all. : I find it hard to believe that there were 'too many chieftans &
: not enough Nelyar'. With all we know about Elves, how could
: Elwe & Olwe be elevated to chieftans so indescriminantly?
: Being the sons of Enel would be a logical assumption, IMHO. I'm not sure their elevation would have been indiscriminate. Cirdan and Lenwe (Denweg) were also chieftains among the Teleri. They just weren't ranked as highly as Elwe and Olwe. Elwe was their first lord, and when he vanished Olwe was made the king, but then his kingship was restricted only to those Teleri who actually passed over Sea to Valinor. Should we not wonder of Lenwe wasn't also related to Elwe? I'm not sure Tolkien ever got that far, since the Nandor evolved from the Danians, who were originally Noldor who turned aside, not Teleri.
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