: : : : Again, could not kinsman (not necessarily cousin) of Elwe
: : : : mean any one of the following:

: : : : 1) grandson of Olwe? (he had many children, according to
: : : : HoME,V10); & Cirdan was not necessarily born at Cuivienen.

: : : Yes, but Cirdan was definitely alive during the Great
: : : Journey. It seems highly unlikely he was the son or grandson
: : : of Olwe (and Voronwe's mother was Cirdan's kinswoman, so
: : : there is another level of complexity which must be dealt
: : : with).

: : Why is it so difficult to believe a 4th generation Elf could be
: : born on the Great Journey, when a 3rd generation can so easily
: : rise to prominence before the March???

: There is no mention of the Elves having children during the Great Journey. There may be some obscure passage where Tolkien said they didn't have children, although my memory concerning that is vague (and therefore may be false).

:
: : : : 4) silver-haired member of the Lindar (Teleri)????
: : : : 5) simply a member of the Lindar?????

: : : Christopher suggests that only the family of Elwe had silver
: : : hair.

: : Christopher?... suggests??... C'mon.

: He is sometimes wrong, but there is no reason to assume he is wrong unless he points out some error on his part. However, in this case, it appears that I am in error. JRRT himself made the suggestion, and I only vaguely recalled it. It appears on page 384 of THE WAR OF THE JEWELS in "Quendi and Eldar":

:

:   Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in
:   Exilic Quenya.  This was the nae given by the Exiled Noldor
:   (see Note 11) to the second largest of the divisions of the
:   Eldar.  (Note 16, p. 412)  It was applied to all the Elves of
:   Telerin origin that the Noldor found in Beleriand, though it
:   later excluded the Nandor, except those who were direct subjects
:   of Elwe, or had become merged with his people.  The name meant
:   'the Grey', or 'the Grey-elves', and was derived from *THIN,
:   PQ *thindi 'grey, pale or silvery grey', Q thinde,
:   N dialect sinde.
: 

:

:   On the origin of this name see Note 11.  The Loremasters also
:   supposed that reference was made to the hair of the Sindar.
:   Elwe himself indeed had long and beautiful hair of silver hue,
:   but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the
:   Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially
:   in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan).
:   In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled
:   the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
:   Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;
:   for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed
:   those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness.  For which
:   reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.
: 

: : : : None of which void the possibility of 2nd generation for
: : : : Elwe & brothers.

: : : Why is it so important for them to be 2nd generation Elves?

: : Well, its NOT, as I mentioned previously. But it IS the whole
: : premise of my debate. I'm attempting to rationalize the
: : possibility (I think, *probability*), that the 3 ambassadors
: : were the eldest sons of the 3 Elf-fathers. I do this, taking
: : into consideration the great tradition of Elves concerning
: : blood, eldest sons, heirs, and power & respect.

: Okay, I see your point now. It's an interesting idea, but I'm afraid it doesn't really leave room for Cirdan and his kinswoman in the family tree for Enel. I think you are referring to Section 10 of "Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor" in MORGOTH'S RING when you speak of Olwe's having many children. Finwe's complaint is that "Ingwe and Olwe beget many children in the bliss of Aman." Since Cirdan was not born in Aman, he could not be a descendant of Olwe. Hence, Elwe, Olwe (, and Elmo) HAVE to be at least third-generation Elves, or else Cirdan is a kinsman by marriage (i.e., related to the wife of either Olwe or Elmo) who just happens to share the silver hair that is rare among the Sindar (but the implication of Tolkien's passage is that he inherited the trait from a mutual ancestor).

Well, you got me almost convinced. Although there's still a few *outs* (most possible of which, I think, would be a grandson of Elmo through a daughter - UT only mentions "the son of Elmo", and such a brief account could easily be incomplete) But the matter is not worth pursuing.

[snip]

: : : Some of the Elves had died and some had disappeared. And THE
: : : WAR OF THE JEWELS doesn't say that Elwe and Olwe were the
: : : only chieftains among the Nelyar. It merely says that when
: : : these two chieftains were resolved to depart, many of the
: : : Nelyar were persuaded to take the journey after all.

: : I find it hard to believe that there were 'too many chieftans &
: : not enough Nelyar'. With all we know about Elves, how could
: : Elwe & Olwe be elevated to chieftans so indescriminantly?
: : Being the sons of Enel would be a logical assumption, IMHO.

: I'm not sure their elevation would have been indiscriminate. Cirdan and Lenwe (Denweg) were also chieftains among the Teleri. They just weren't ranked as highly as Elwe and Olwe. Elwe was their first lord, and when he vanished Olwe was made the king, but then his kingship was restricted only to those Teleri who actually passed over Sea to Valinor.

Well, there's no reason to believe Cirdan (& Lenwe for that matter, although I'll address that below) was a 'chieftan', or 'Lord', *before* he led his (their) sundered people. Is there?

I still think it rather remarkable that Elwe & Olwe were called chieftans before the Separation (ie. no one to lead but the Nelyar!).

: Should we not wonder of Lenwe wasn't also related to Elwe? I'm not sure Tolkien ever got that far, since the Nandor evolved from the Danians, who were originally Noldor who turned aside, not Teleri.

Ah! This was actually going to be my next hypothesis. I was aware of Lenwe's original Noldo status, & in pursuing this I found that it need not be untrue. I know Tolkien supplanted the original passage where the Nandor were originally the "hindmost of the Noldor", to a later page where they came from the 3rd host (ie Lindar - I hate the word Teleri). BUT, Lenwe's heritage is never again brought up, only that he led people away from the "host of Olwe".

There was a great pause along the March at Anduin, most definitely for the Lindar, and many wished to remain there. And it was here that the Nandor went southward. So, the 'hindmost' of the Noldor may have remained on the east bank until the Lindar arrived. In fact, if they procrastinated long enough, Elwe's group would have eventually left, leaving only Olwe's host. Thus if a hindmost part of the Noldor, DID become the Nandor, it would have been from the 'host of Olwe' that they were ultimately sundered!

Furthermore, follow this logic if you will. At the Awakening, there were 5 groups of Elves (Minyar, 1st Tatyar, 2nd Tatyar, 1st Nelyar, 2nd Nelyar). Then at the Separation 2 more groups emerged (Tatyar Avari & Nelyar Avari). Okay, 7 groups.

We know the leader of the Minyar (or Vanyar at the Separation) was Ingwe, and that Elwe & Olwe were leaders of 2 Nelyar hosts, even at the Separation. Also we know, with a fair degree of certainty, that the 2 Avari leaders were Morwe & Nurwe. And finally, there's Finwe and his Noldor. So, 6 leaders; 7 groups.

What do these leaders all have in common? They end in 'WE'. And as far as I know, the only other Elf that does is Len-WE. Also, chronologically speaking, he becomes the next leader of Elves. Now I don't know the meaning of 'WE' (maybe I've missed something - quite possible), but there's Man-WE, Lord of the Valar; Eon-WE, chief of the Maiar; (& maybe Fion-WE, son & heir? of Manwe). Could there be some significance - possibly meaning 'highest one' or 'leader'?

Finally (this may be stretching the point), if we look at the 3rd last letter of each Elf leader, the 2 Avari leaders end in 'RWE', the 2 Lindar leaders end in 'LWE', and the Vanyar leader (with no sibling group) ends in 'NGWE'. That leaves Fi-NWE & Le-NWE.

So, I put forth the theory (if you hadn't guessed by now), that Lenwe was proclaimed the leader of the 2nd Tatyar, *at* the Separation, along with the other 6 leaders.

Okay, knock holes in this one!!

BTW, if you think about it (& the loyalty of Elves), few separations really occur where Elves are disloyal to these leaders:
- the Eglath remain BECAUSE they are loyal to Elwe.
- the Falathrim remain, but Cirdan is only ever a Lord, not a King, & its done at Osse's persuasion, as well as Elwe's disappearance. And for all intents & purposes, only an ocean separates them & their brethren Falmari. They are all Olwe's Sea-Elves (under the possible title 'Solosimpi' - from LT)
- of course there's Feanor's Exiles, but Finwe was dead, & its a definitely a special case anyway.
- and finally, there's Denethor; but for all we know Lenwe could have already perished.

Heorrenda