Posted: January 30, 2000 at 10:38:21: by Dave C-Q
: : They made Turin a Maia so why can't they make Tuor an Elf?: : I'm curious, where did you read this? This is the first time I've heard of this. I find it hard to believe seeing as how Maia are essentially angels. Quite a bit different than a man. : It says so in The Shaping of Middle Earth page 165. Quenta Silmarillion chapter 19 that didn't make it to the final Silmarillion. : "Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwë (Ëonwë) and on his left Turin Turambar, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged." Later on the page it says: "But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the gods. (later changed in pencil to "among the sons of the gods.") : In the "Commentary on the Quenta," same book, page 205. Tolkien says: "The apperance of Turin at the end remains profoundly mysterious; and here it is said that the Prophecy names him amongthe Gods, which is clearly to be related to the passage in the old Tale of Turambar (II.116),where it is said that Turin and Nienor `dwelt as sining Valar among the blessed ones`, after they had passed through Fôs`Almir, the bath of flame. In changes to the text of Q II it is said that Turin is named among `the sons of the Gods`, rather than among the Gods, and also that he comes `from the halls of Mandos` to the final battle; about which I can say no more than that Turin Turambar, though a mortal Man, did not go, as do the race of Men, to a fate beyond the World" : This is something I wish were in later versions of the Silmarillion. It is just about the only thing that is said about Dagor Dagorath and the end of the world. : As for Turin the only thing I can say is that he deserved it. : Meneldur I wonder if Tolkien wanted to keep anything of this in his revised silmarillion, after the Maiar were changed from being the children of the Valar into simply less powerful Ainur... There is a way to in Tolkien's revised schema, though not to make him an actual Maia. Since the spirits of Men do go to Mandos before leaving the confines of the world and stay for a time of pennance/cleansing, maybe Turin stays there until the end of days refusing to leave his hatred behind and therefore unable to move on. His spirit would thus still be there among the Maiar and Valar and elves when the final battle begins. Interesting. Or maybe it's just that when the spirits of Men do arrive to play some important part in the final battle (the Second Music, perhaps), Turin's spirit forsakes that part and goes to the aid of Tulkas out of hatred for the Dark Lord. It's all interesting. But I think we do have to admit that most likely Tolkien would have chucked this part of his older mythology, since in the revised one, the hierarchy of spirits was much more static and intrinsic (i.e., men could not even become elves, and vice-versa, except in the case of the half-elven or half-maiar, let alone becoming Maiar). Anyway, tha
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