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Re: Turin at the Dagor Dagorath | White Council Forum Archive - msg 8476

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Topic: Re: Turin at the Dagor Dagorath    Reply to: msg 8458
Posted: January 30, 2000 at 10:38:21: by Dave C-Q
: : They made Turin a Maia so why can't they make Tuor an Elf?

: : I'm curious, where did you read this? This is the first time
I've heard of this. I find it hard to believe seeing as how Maia
are essentially angels. Quite a bit different than a man.

: It says so in The Shaping of Middle Earth page 165. Quenta
Silmarillion chapter 19 that didn't make it to the final
Silmarillion.
: "Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of
Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his
right shall stand Fionwë (Ëonwë) and on his left Turin Turambar,
Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that
deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the
children of Hurin and all Men be avenged." Later on the page it
says: "But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of
Turin only, and him it names among the gods. (later changed in
pencil to "among the sons of the gods.")

: In the "Commentary on the Quenta," same book, page 205. Tolkien
says: "The apperance of Turin at the end remains profoundly
mysterious; and here it is said that the Prophecy names him
amongthe Gods, which is clearly to be related to the passage in
the old Tale of Turambar (II.116),where it is said that Turin and
Nienor `dwelt as sining Valar among the blessed ones`, after they
had passed through Fôs`Almir, the bath of flame. In changes to
the text of Q II it is said that Turin is named among `the sons
of the Gods`, rather than among the Gods, and also that he comes
`from the halls of Mandos` to the final battle; about which I can
say no more than that Turin Turambar, though a mortal Man, did
not go, as do the race of Men, to a fate beyond the World"

: This is something I wish were in later versions of the
Silmarillion. It is just about the only thing that is said about
Dagor Dagorath and the end of the world.
: As for Turin the only thing I can say is that he deserved it.

: Meneldur

I wonder if Tolkien wanted to keep anything of this in his
revised silmarillion, after the Maiar were changed from being the
children of the Valar into simply less powerful Ainur...

There is a way to in Tolkien's revised schema, though not to make
him an actual Maia. Since the spirits of Men do go to Mandos
before leaving the confines of the world and stay for a time of
pennance/cleansing, maybe Turin stays there until the end of days
refusing to leave his hatred behind and therefore unable to move
on. His spirit would thus still be there among the Maiar and
Valar and elves when the final battle begins.

Interesting.

Or maybe it's just that when the spirits of Men do arrive to play
some important part in the final battle (the Second Music,
perhaps), Turin's spirit forsakes that part and goes to the aid
of Tulkas out of hatred for the Dark Lord.

It's all interesting. But I think we do have to admit that most
likely Tolkien would have chucked this part of his older
mythology, since in the revised one, the hierarchy of spirits was
much more static and intrinsic (i.e., men could not even become
elves, and vice-versa, except in the case of the half-elven or
half-maiar, let alone becoming Maiar).

Anyway, tha



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