Posted: February 19, 2000 at 11:26:30: by Beren
FORKBEARD WRITES: : : Also, this scene bears striking resemblance to William : : of Poitiers account of the battle of Hastings.MARTINEZ WRITES: : I don't recall the Battle of Hastings raging around two hills. Nor did Aragorn use a shield wall. A reasonably good description of the battle may be found at http://www.ancientsites.com/er/hastings.html (and this is by no means my only source of information -- it's just one I found on the Net that everyone can examine). I don't see even the vaguest resemblance between the two battles. At Hastings the guys on the bluff lost, and in LOTR the guys on the two hills won. While there are marked dissimilarities between the stand before the Black Gate and the Battle of Hastings, I think that the assertion that there is not "the vaguest resemblance between the two battles" is somewhat overbold. It is also inaccurate. Let us look at some of the similarities (while the website listed above is a decent one, it is given to some editorializing and inaccuracies, might I recommend the following: http://www.historyserver.org/hastings/Contents.html as being a slightly better account though I have a few quibbles with it as well). On to the analysis: Aragorn and his men set themselves in a defensive position on a hill (there were in fact two hills, but the positions were virtually identical so we can look at just Aragorn's hill as exemplary). Harold Godwinson set his men in a defensive position on the crest of a small ridge called Caldbec Hill. There is #1. Aragorn surrounded his position with a ring "facing all ways, bristling with spear and sword." We also know that these men carried shields as when the Trolls assault the line Tolkien writes that they "beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield." The best soldiers--the sons of Elrond and the Dunedain, and the Prince of Dol Amroth and picked men from the Tower of the Guard--anchored the defense. Harold Godwinson form his renowned shield wall with men armed with primarily axe, shield, and spear, although there were also maces and swords and other sundry fyrdmen weapons. The line was anchored by the best English soldiers--the housecarls--which included Harold and his brothers and other Saxon lords and elite soldiers. There is #2. MARTINEZ ALSO WRITES: : And I don't see any need to equate the Rangers with "housecarls". Tolkien's Rangers are not personal troops. There is in fact, quite a bit of similarity between Aragorn's elite--primarily the Dunedain for the sake of this argument--and Harold's house carls. The use of the word "personal troops" above is misleading. The Rangers in the battle before the Black Gate were the kinsmen and countrymen of Aragorn. They were elite, experienced, fighting men who had come south to serve Aragorn as their lord and leader. They were tied to him by blood and nation. They were not "employed" or otherwise professional soldiers. The house carls of Harold at the Battle of Hastings were elite, experienced, fighting men who were the kinsmen and close countrymen of Harold. They also were not employed as professional soldiers but served their lord and leader. The basic definition of house carl is a kinsman or close member of the house who fights with and defends his lord and leader in battle. In that the Dunedain meet this definition, as do the house carls and Harold's brothers at Hastings, the two groups are markedly similar. There is #3. As has been noted, Harold lost, and Aragorn won. However, as we all know, Aragorn had no chance of winning the battle on military terms alone. It was the destruction of the Ring that allowed the Men of the West to achieve victory. Had the battle raged on Aragorn's defenses would have surely crumbled after time, as Harold's did. His ring of shields, swords and spears would have given in, and Aragorn eventually would have lost his life, hacked by orcs and trolls even as Harold was butchered, possibly unceremoniously hewn by Ivo of Ponthieu. There is #4. I would like to add that the two battles are in no way identical, nor do I even think Tolkien was thinking of Hastings as he imagined the battle before the Black Gate (though it is possible I suppose). And there are elements that are not similar. Tolkien basically had infantry vs. infantry (although the Trolls could be seen as similar to the heavier Norman cavalry and we can surmise that there might have been more Southron cavalry in Sauron's army) and Hastings was a mixed group of cavalry/infantry/archers vs. infantry. And of course the numbers, and thus the battle, were more equally matched at Hastings than at the Gate. But to say that the two bear NO resemblance is to ignore the facts of both battles. If anyone wants more evidence I can drag out Poitiers, the Bayeux Tapestry and a whole load of sources relating to Hastings, but I think it is not necessary (or likely desired!). No one wants me to start printing my thesis work on the Norman Conquest on the White COuncil I am sure. You can e-mail me if you are burning with desire to know more. hahaha
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