Posted: April 16, 2000 at 02:29:08: by Michael Martinez
: Although there is no place in which Tolkien openly states that
: Elves and Dwarves had a long-standing resentment toward one
: another, there do seem to be enough textual clues to suggest
: that while the two races were certainly allies they were quite
: different, with different attitudes and world views, and that
: there existed a certain discomfiture to their relationship. I
: do think that the Thorin/Thranduil incident alludes to this, as
: does the unease expressed toward Gimli in Lorien...These are both isolated cases with specific causes. Thorin simply misbehaved. Gimli had done nothing wrong but Haldir did not have the authority to set aside Lorien's law, and he risked censure at permitting a Dwarf to enter Lorien. : ...I also think that the novel provides sufficient clues that
: the friendship between Legolas and Gimli is profound in part
: because they are Elf and Dwarf and that these two races have
: seldom been close, although they have often been allies. But this is incorrect. The two races WERE quite often close in the past. By the end of the Third Age all races were drifting apart, becoming estranged from one another. Elrond even made a point of this. : The passage cited earlier in this thread from the Silmarillion
: concerning the strife between the races is noteworthy, but I
: think that more emphasis can be placed upon Elrond's
: words--spoken during the Council--about 'past grievances'
: between and Elf and Dwarf (as cited earlier)... Nope. Those were Gandalf's words, and the strife clearly applies to both Elves and Men (and more to Men, given the fact that there are more documented cases of strife between Dwarves and Men). : ...This is strong evidence that there is a history of unrest
: between the two allied races... I've never seen such evidence. Nowhere in the published histories are there any indications of "unrest" (what do you mean by that, anyway?) between Elves and Dwarves. There are clear examples of close friendship between Elves and Dwarves: Thingol's friendship with Nogrod and Belegost lasted for the equivalent of thousands of years. Maedhros and his brothers were allied with them for hundreds of years. Eol was friendly with the Dwarves for hundreds of years. Eregion and Khazad-dum were closely allied and friendly for 1000 years. The Dwarves of Khazad-dum marched with the Last Alliance. Where are the indications of unrest? The long friendships and alliances are well documented. But disputes? You've got one war, which lasted a very brief time. That's hardly strong contextual evidence of anything. Elrond seemed well-disposed toward the Dwarves. They were always showing up on his doorstep, it seems. : ...I think also, that in reading the novels (including the
: Hobbit and the LOTR) the reader develops the distinct feeling
: that there is tension between the two races... I don't. : ...This overall "feeling" is not to be discounted as it is one
: of the great tools of the good author, that of subtle
: expression. I've only ever seen this "feeling" in gamers and online fans who have been sharing impressions with each other for years. Maybe 1 or 2 people in my online experience have ever been able to point to passages for me which could reasonably lead them to believe there was a problem between the Dwarves. Usually when I ask people what led them to conclude this they can't give me an answer. As best I can determine, most of the people who believe there were problems between the Elves and Dwarves believe so because someone else said there were. When did YOU first decide there were problems between Elves and Dwarves, and why?
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