Posted: April 16, 2000 at 16:18:11: by macadamia
It seems to me that the view Michael is disputing (correct me if I'm wrong) is the one that presumes that there was a specific "racial bias" between elves and dwarves, as opposed to a wide range of relationships extending from extreme friendship to considerable antipathy (but antipathy usually not directed against, say, all dwarves).If this is what he's saying, then I agree with Michael. I suspect that the presumption of "demi-human racism" stems ultimately more from D&D than from Tolkien's works. That said, I would have to agree with Bacchus and some others that the main works (The Hobbit and the LOTR), as opposed to the entire published corpus, do support the sense of overriding antipathy between elves and dwarves. In other words, although I think Michael's contextualizing of the various relevant situations (with Tharanduil in The Hobbit, at Rivendell and in Lorien in the LOTR) is correct, the fact remains (IMO) that the visible relationships between elves and dwarves in these texts are almost entirely noticeably strained, and moreso than are those than between either elves or dwarves and humans. Note that I am not claiming that this impression would actually be born out by the further evidence. I am saying, in other words, that I actually agree to a considerable degree with both Michael and Bacchus -- I think what Michael says is a more accurate depiction of the actual state of the Tolkien universe, but that what Bacchus says (at least if one takes out the specifically "racial" element) is, in fact, in fine keeping with dwarf/elf relations as portrayed in the main books. And this is not, I suspect, a matter of "bias" so much as depth of knowledge of Tolkien's further writings. (but I may be wrong, and no offense intended to anyone) Lastly, [snip] : : Perhaps Tolkien did not document it sufficiently in his : : ancillary works, but the major works seem to indicate to an : : unbiased reader that the two races did not get along. : Really? So I and others like me are biased? How did we become so biased? What led us to conclude before we read these books that the Elves and Dwarves were really close friends? : Be careful with your comments. We don't allow taking things to a personal level here. [snip] It's none of my business, I suppose, but I think that there's quite a gulf between a reference to "an unbiased reader" and a personal attack regarding another person's alleged bias. In fact, there's no mention of names whatsoever in the passage in question. It's up to the powers that be, of course, but I would think that this passage would fall into the "neutral discourse" category. If it doesn't, I think it might prove hard to disagree with anyone on here at all.
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