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Re: Dwarves and Elves a clash of personality? | White Council Forum Archive - msg 11945

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Topic: Re: Dwarves and Elves a clash of personality?    Reply to: msg 11943
Posted: April 19, 2000 at 07:06:36: by Martin Read
: : Also the material aquisitiveness of the Dwarves must have led to Elves distrusting them. Sharp trading practice does not lead to mutual esteem.

: Note the love (lust?) of Silver that Thranduil had. Also Feanor's hordes, and the hordes of various Noldo lords, the gold in Nargothrond, the sacking of Doriath turned up some interesting treasures. I would say that your average Noldrorian elf of old was just as materialistic as the dwarves.

The Hobbit does not give a very rounded (in regards the other writings) view of the Elves. Also the rather mirthless desire for material wealth seems to have been "hard-wired" into the Dwarves rather than being a feature peculiar to a minority of Elves. The early Noldor craftsmen are described as giving away their creations as well as hoarding some (were these hoards freely accessible to the members of the community - a possibility) not a trait displayed by Dwarves.

: : The Dwarves appear to have lacked an appreciation of music, or it was grossly different from that of Elves or Men, this would have been something which would not endear them to the Elves.

: It may not endear, but it wouldn't matter much either. There is much diversity among human musicians of various races, and there is hardly any distaste between races, based upon music. (It's mainly based on colour of skin!)

All men appear to be descended from common ancestors, the Elves and Dwarves were the products of two separate creations. A basic similarity of musical taste can be expected in all humans. Also song and music played a more significant role in Middle Earth than in this world - the Ainur sang material creation into existence.

: : The Dwarves were in general monomaniacal, building, creating objects of craftsmanship and amassing worldly wealth were the things which chiefly mattered to Dwarves. These drives were much less important to most Elves.

: Umm, think of the Noldorian smiths! This is one of the driving forces of their society, based on their love for making things, and hording gems of their design. By most elves, I think you overreach yourself. I agree that elves of the third age seemed to have curbed their desire to create, but that may be because the Noldor have mostly gone West.

The desire to create is not divisive here, it is the limited repertoire of the Dwarves' creative abilities which is - and the degree of obsessiveness. The Elves created things for the beauty they, and others could then appreciate, in this they were copying Eru the prime creator, the Dwarves, in contrast, seem to be driven by some inner force to create. It is believable that a Dwarf could make some wondrous object then hide it away for personal gloating, an Elf would want to display his work to his community for their enjoyment (before their theft the Silmarils were displayed for the benefit of Elf and Ainu). The Elves also created in other ways - song, poetry, history and other non physical media.

: : In general Elves were aware of the natural environment and their creations (buildings, jewelry etc.) were made to harmonise with nature, the Dwarves in contrast seem to have delighted in overcoming nature and imposing their will on it.

: Umm, they lived underground, in fairly "natural" caves. Sure, they were dwarf cities, and things had been built within the natural confines, but I had always envisioned Rivendell's "Last Homely House" to be well, a house. Nothing more unnatural than that! At least the Dwarves lived within natural confines.
: I think what you meant was the dwarves' love of stone, and stone work, where as the elves seemed to like living plants more.

How natural were Dwarf-delvings? The descriptions of Moria give the impression that most of it was unnatural in finish. Menegroth in contrast was described as like an underground forest grove.


: : All in all it is not surprising that a basic level of distrust and lack of sympathy existed between the two races. Any actual hostilities between them due to specific grievances would only tend to reinforce prejudice.

: Well, I wouldn't say that such petty prejudice would lead to serious amounts of mistrust. Even in human society (Earth), these would be considered petty. When you cosider that elves and dwarves speak the common tongue, and know of each other's pasts, and historys, you would think that they would trust each other. There isn't too much to mistrust each other about!

If the basis of your people's culture was founded on language, and music, then the fact that a different folk had (apparently) none of their own would greatly influence your perceptions. The distinction here is certainly not petty, the world we are discussing was created by a linguist who's major interest in life was language, furthermore the medium he chose for the creative force within his world was music/song.

: Don't get me wrong, I believe that there was strife between the two kindreds. Just not for the reasons that you pointed out above.

: I think it's more the whole deal with the Nauglimir, which was a HUGE deal. Also the fact that some dwarves fought on Morgoth's side. BUT, I don't see why the elves didn't mistrust men for the same reason. After all, men as a race were pretty shifty, and traitorous. Also, many clans had sided with Sauron. Could it be the marriages of elves and men that stemmed the prejudice? It would seem that there's more to the Elf/Dwarf thing than just their taste in music....

: Gandalf

The basic kinship between Elves and Men was admitted by the Eldar before they met any men - they new the "late-comers" were equally "Children of Illuvatar" just as they were. When the first contact was made, Finrod listened to the humans sing he then picked up one of their instuments and communicated with them through song. The Elves and Men had a common ground on which to meet, I would submit that Elves and Dwarves had much less.
The Elves found the Edain physically attractive - tall and sturdy with a fleeting (to them) beauty. They admired the courage loyalty and prowess of the human warriors, who it transpired could rise to heights of heroic grandeur to equal the very best of their own folk. They even envied them that they could leave the circles of the world, and that they had a destiny known only to Eru.

What could the Elves admire in the Dwarves? A grim courage and surpassing craftsmanship, not much more.




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