: Could it be that our interpretations of Elf-Dwarf relations (and perhaps other "inter-race" relations in ME) are shaped more than we know by our living in the 21st century in the United States or Europe (as it seems most of us do), where various issues of racism in the modern sense form some of the background of our basic experience?

: I mention this because I've read a couple of books over the past two or three years that detail the very different ways of thinking about race that have popped up in different places and times in recorded history (ranging from the most contentious to the relatively benign to the effectively negligable or non-existent).

: PERHAPS, if I may suggest, many readers (myself included) have been predisposed to read the definite tensions between certain elves and dwarves that are apparent in The Hobbit and the LOTR as roughly along the lines of what we think of as "racial hostility." And if so, it's possible that we have read something into these texts that is not quite there.

: If right, this suggestion would in no way indicate that there was not still this definite tension in the texts. It would merely indicate that a somewhat different interpretation of that tension is warranted.

: Just a thought. As always, any insult or offense this posting may provoke is, I assure you, quite unintentional. Please let me know if I have, in fact, offended or insulted you (at my email address or on this page), and I will try to make amends.

: -maca

: : Hi all,

: : New here but I wanted to just comment on a few things regarding the Elf-Dwarf subject. Touchy subject apparently from what I have read but a good debate none the less.

: : From my twenty years of reading Tolkiens works I have to say I have never even thought to question the fact that there was anything but emnity between Dwarves and Elves. It is highlighted so many times in Tolkiens works. Not so much in The Sil when nobody really trusted anybody but getting into The Hobbit and LOTR was where it is very apparent.

: : There are so many points to choose from. Gandalf's comments about "All of the problems of Elves and Dwarves", Treebeard's obvious suprise at the relationship between Gimli and Legolas, Thranduil's treatment of Thorin and company where there was definate sign's in his comments of a racial nature against the Dwarves, Gimli at first being the only one the Elves wanted to blindfold in Lorien. I also remember a comment by Haldir when they were finally released about all could walk freely, EVEN the dwarf.

: : Saying that I believe a lot of this was similar to what we get today where for example, a white person may be distrustful of a black person even though they may have never met one and visa versa. Its all about education even in stories such as this. A lot of this trouble was probably down to the way Elves and Dwarves heard stories of old and how not to trust a dwarf or elf and so on and on.

: : My one main reason for feeling this though is the way the Gimli-Legolas relationship is portrayed. The book gives a strong impression that the relationship is unusual. I think ultimatly the relationship is also one of triumph which shows that the two races can be friendly towards each other.

: : Anyway's, well met all.

: :

Good points above.
I'll add myself to the list of those who, before this discussion started, had not even considered that it's possible to think that there's no special dislike between elves and dwarves.

The books do give the feeling that it is so, and I do not think that Tolkien gave the impression by accident. It is true that it isn't clear why there should be any more tension between elves and dwarves that between elves and men, but that doesn't make a difference, I think it is a "it just is that way" -case. Perhaps it's something similar to why we are inclined to forgive and understand a family member much more than a stranger on the street, if they wrong us.
As we have been long discussing in a tread below, it is't entirely clear why the Tree Rings should have failed, yet it happened and we accept that. These are two matters which Tolkien perhaps should have explained better.

A big reason why someone might not want to think that there was tension has IMO to do with what maca wrote above. If our interpretations of elf-dwarf relations are shaped by our experiences in this world and time, we might then see in Middle-Earth something which we don't want to see there, and rebell at the thought (I would). It would ruin the magic to see the crap of this world in Middle-Earth in the same form as we see it here.

-Foradan