: : This was pointed out to me in another thread. First, I wasn't
: : thinking of Celeborn since he and Galadriel had already moved
: : east before the fall of Nargothrond. (I also don't consider
: : Celeborn a memeber of the royal house) Who I was referring to
: : was Elwing and Elrond. However, as was pointed out, Elwing did
: : her disappearing act while Elrond was still young and shortly
: : thereafter he was taken and, as you say, probably presumed
: : dead. In those circumstances, there wouldnt be a member of the
: : royal house the Sindar could latch onto.

: Tolkien doesn't seem to consider Elrond and Elros to be members of the royal house,

As I use the terms, royal house is not the same as being in the line of succession. Members of the royal house would be a broader term than being in the line of succession or being an "Heir". Thus, for example, I would term Eledil and hs sons of being of the the royal house of Elros, regardless of whether they were in the line of succession. I vaguely remember some text to the effect that the Stewards of Gondor were "royal" but for whatever reason weren't in the line of succession. I assumed that meant they were of a female line.

: but Celeborn was lord of the Sindar in Harlindon, so it does appear that Tolkien considered him to be of the royal house.

I would draw a different distinction. Celeborn was Lord of Harlindon which happened to be populated mostly by Sindar. I'm sure there were some Noldor in Harlindon and Celeborn was just as much their lord. Harlindon was part of Gil-galad's kingdom. He could have appointed anybody. It probably just made sense to name Celeborn who would have been known and trusted by the vast majority of the local population.

: The "royal house", after all, consisted of Thingol, his brothers, and their descendants (but whether descendants of the female line were included is not clear, despite all the brouhaha over "Dior Eluchil", 'Dior Thingol's Heir').

Right. My use of the term member of the royal house was intended to avoid the technicalities of heirship and the strict law of succession. However, I am unsure whether I would include Elmo and his descendants as being in a royal house. Unless Elmo or Elmo, Elwe and Olwe's father was a king, that is. However, I do have some memory that Celeborn was referred to as a Prince somewhere. If so, and assuming that reference was not in one of Celeborn's non-Sindarin variations (i.e.a Telerin Prince of Aman), then he would have been considered to be in the royal house.

: : You're mentioning of Gil-galad at first confused me but then I
: : remembered his descent from Earwen which provided a convenient
: : fiction for the Sindar to acknowledge his high kingship. When
: : after his return Elrond did not want to create a "New Doriath"
: : the situation was simply left as is.

: Why would they need a "fiction"? The old order had been completely destroyed by the time he became High King. Thingol's realm ceased to exist several years before Gondolin was destroyed, and with it went all of the authority of Thingol as Lord of the Sindar. When Gondolin went the last of the Noldorin realms vanished. All that remained were the enclaves Elves in Beleriand (the Feanorians, the Laiquendi, and the Doriathian survivors in Arvernien) and the enclave on the Isle of Balar.

As I see it, the high kingship of the Noldor was not geographical or limited by the political situation. There was never a lapse in the high kingship even when all the individual Noldorin realms were destroyed. Similarly, I would differentiate between the high kingship of the Sindar as a people and the Kingship of Doriath the kingdom.

Anyway, the reason I used the term "fiction" (which may be too strong a word) when opining about the Sindar acknowledging the high kingship of Gil-galad is because although he is descended from a Telerin royal house, he is not descended from the Sindarin royal house. In the absense of Elwing or her sons, the Sindar probably took a look at Gil-galad, realized he was actually mostly of Telerin stock and said, OK, we'll recognize him too. His status among the Noldor would have been besides the point for them. Had Elrond or Elwing been around, I'd be surprised if the Sindar would have taken that step.

Once Elrond did reappear it was somthing of a fait accompli and Elrond had, in any event, absolutley no desire to make any claim on the loyalty of the Sindarin people based on his being a Sindarin prince of the blood.

: Earendil and Elwing were both gone, so the lordship over their people from Arvernien would not have been in dispute. For all the Elves knew, Elwing was dead anyway, since she had cast herself into the sea. Elrond and Elros were children and presumed dead, too, since the Feanorians had killed their child uncles Elured and Elurin.

Yep. Those points are well made.

: Gil-galad was the most noble Elf left among the Noldor and Sindar, even though Cirdan was older and had been a high lord in his own right. The House of Feanor were the Dispossessed, so they had no real claims to high lordship. Cirdan, for whatever reason, did not assert any "rights" he may have had. Presumably he felt the surviving Eldar needed a single leader.

: Tolkien nowhere gives Elrond any choices or rights to establishing kingdoms as a successor to anyone.

Unfortunately we are never given details of the political situation between the Fall of Gondolin and the establishement of Gil-galad's Eldarin realm in Lindon. I find the whole issue intriguing.

Russ