: As I use the terms, royal house is not the same as being in the
: line of succession. Members of the royal house would be a
: broader term than being in the line of succession or being an
: "Heir". Thus, for example, I would term Eledil and hs sons of
: being of the the royal house of Elros, regardless of whether
: they were in the line of succession. I vaguely remember some
: text to the effect that the Stewards of Gondor were "royal" but
: for whatever reason weren't in the line of succession. I
: assumed that meant they were of a female line.

In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH Tolkien says the Stewards were of "royal origin", but they were not members of the royal house (the House of Anarion, or the House of Elendil). By the same token, Elendil's family was of "royal origin" in Numenor, and Elrond and Elros were of "royal origin" in Beleriand.

: : but Celeborn was lord of the Sindar in Harlindon, so it does
: : appear that Tolkien considered him to be of the royal house.

: I would draw a different distinction. Celeborn was Lord of
: Harlindon which happened to be populated mostly by Sindar. I'm
: sure there were some Noldor in Harlindon and Celeborn was just
: as much their lord. Harlindon was part of Gil-galad's kingdom.
: He could have appointed anybody. It probably just made sense
: to name Celeborn who would have been known and trusted by the
: vast majority of the local population.

I will concede this point.

: : The "royal house", after all, consisted of Thingol, his
: : brothers, and their descendants (but whether descendants of
: : the female line were included is not clear, despite all the
: : brouhaha over "Dior Eluchil", 'Dior Thingol's Heir').

: Right. My use of the term member of the royal house was
: intended to avoid the technicalities of heirship and the strict
: law of succession. However, I am unsure whether I would
: include Elmo and his descendants as being in a royal house.
: Unless Elmo or Elmo, Elwe and Olwe's father was a king, that
: is. However, I do have some memory that Celeborn was referred
: to as a Prince somewhere. If so, and assuming that reference
: was not in one of Celeborn's non-Sindarin variations (i.e.a
: Telerin Prince of Aman), then he would have been considered to
: be in the royal house.

The "house" did not originate with Elwe and Olwe. They were brothers (along with Elmo). The "house" originated with their parents, or grandparents. Tolkien too often refers to Celeborn as "of the kin of Thingol" for there to be any mistake about his associating Celeborn with Thingol's family. He refers to Cirdan as "of the kin of Thingol" on one occasion, thus placing Cirdan in the family. Eol, too, is "of the kin of Thingol".

Tolkien clearly envisioned the kings of the Teleri coming from a noble family, which produced some lords (Cirdan and Celeborn) in addition to kings (Elwe and Olwe).

The lords of the Second House of the Edain in Brethil were not descended from Haleth (who had no descendants), but they were still referred to as the "Folk of Haleth" (I use the term to refer to the people whom they governed, but in the genealogy published in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS the term is applied to the family, and nonetheless shows descent originating from Haldad, the father of Haleth and Haldar).

Hence, Tolkien does not use the term "house" or "folk" or "kin" to refer only to direct descendants of leaders, but also to their relatives. And this broadened usage has played a part in other discussions, such as whether all members of the "house" were literally kinsfolk or might not include vassals and servants.

: : : You're mentioning of Gil-galad at first confused me but
: : : then I remembered his descent from Earwen which provided a
: : : convenient fiction for the Sindar to acknowledge his high
: : : kingship. When after his return Elrond did not want to
: : : create a "New Doriath" the situation was simply left as is.

: : Why would they need a "fiction"? The old order had been
: : completely destroyed by the time he became High King.
: : Thingol's realm ceased to exist several years before Gondolin
: : was destroyed, and with it went all of the authority of
: : Thingol as Lord of the Sindar. When Gondolin went the last
: : of the Noldorin realms vanished. All that remained were the
: : enclaves Elves in Beleriand (the Feanorians, the Laiquendi,
: : and the Doriathian survivors in Arvernien) and the enclave on
: : the Isle of Balar.

: As I see it, the high kingship of the Noldor was not
: geographical or limited by the political situation. There was
: never a lapse in the high kingship even when all the individual
: Noldorin realms were destroyed. Similarly, I would
: differentiate between the high kingship of the Sindar as a
: people and the Kingship of Doriath the kingdom.

But the High Kingship WAS geographical and WAS limited by the political situation. It was a new kingship established in Middle-earth. The kingship of Finwe passed briefly to Feanor, but when he rejected Valinor and the Valar and led most of his people into exile that kingship was transferred to Finarfin. When Feanor abandoned Fingolfin and the majority of the surviving Exiles, he renounced all authority over them, and thus made Fingolfin a de facto king (though it's not clear of when Fingolfin took the title of king).

Maedhros briefly reunited the Noldor-in-Exile under one king when he abdicated in favor of Fingolfin, but then Fingolfin apparently agreed to let Maedhros, Turgon, and Finrod establish their own kingdoms by leading a part of the Exiles away from Hithlum, and they in turn recognized or proclaimed Fingolfin the High King.

(Most of this is, of course, inferred from the histories -- nowhere does Tolkien explain when and how the kingships were established, except for Finwe, Feanor, Finarfin, and Maedhros' abdication).

: Anyway, the reason I used the term "fiction" (which may be too
: strong a word) when opining about the Sindar acknowledging the
: high kingship of Gil-galad is because although he is descended
: from a Telerin royal house, he is not descended from the
: Sindarin royal house. In the absense of Elwing or her sons,
: the Sindar probably took a look at Gil-galad, realized he was
: actually mostly of Telerin stock and said, OK, we'll recognize
: him too. His status among the Noldor would have been besides
: the point for them. Had Elrond or Elwing been around, I'd be
: surprised if the Sindar would have taken that step.

I think I can explain Gil-galad. Bear with me on this one.

He appears to have held three titles: High King of the Noldor-in-Exile, High King of the Elves of the West (although perhaps this only refers to the Noldor), and King of Lindon.

The Sindar chose to dwell in Lindon at the beginning of the Second Age. That marks the very latest moment in their history when Gil-galad would have become their king. Whether he was entitled to be their king by inheritance or not is irrelevant. They chose to accept his rule.

By contrast, the Sindar of Balar had never lived under the rule of Tuor and Earendil. These were not just Sindar of the Falas, so far as I can determine. Gil-galad and Cirdan were apparently gathering all the refugees they could find. I would argue that, given the fact Gil-galad could not have been sent to the Falas by Fingon, he probably led a party of survivors from Nargothrond to the Mouths of Sirion, and there joined his people to Cirdan's on Balar.

Now, if you'll recall, Gil-galad was the rightful heir (after Orodreth's death) to Finrod, who was himself probably the rightful heir to Thingol (let's assume that the brotherhood went Elwe-Olwe-Elmo -- that puts Gil-galad higher up the line than Celeborn). Finrod and Orodreth died before Thingol did, and their kingdom was destroyed before Doriath was destroyed. So the business with Dior Thingol's Heir doesn't really complicate matters. Gil-galad, for whatever reason, chose not to leave Balar. Hence, he abdicated or voided (or whatever you lawyers call it) his right to succeed Thingol.

But Finrod as King of Nargothrond had also been made or recognized as overlord of the Sindar of west Beleriand (outside the Falas). And that is where Gil-galad's right to rule the Sindar came from. That is why Cirdan deferred to his lordship. We completely forgot about this. Gil-galad was not only a relative, he was the rightful heir of a king of Sindarin Elves (Finrod), and was ultimately the rightful heir of Thingol (after Dior's death).

Gil-galad was thus the only Elven lord at the end of the First Age who had any clear claims to royalty over both Noldor and Sindar.

[snippage]

: : Tolkien nowhere gives Elrond any choices or rights to
: : establishing kingdoms as a successor to anyone.

: Unfortunately we are never given details of the political
: situation between the Fall of Gondolin and the establishement
: of Gil-galad's Eldarin realm in Lindon. I find the whole issue
: intriguing.

Quite so. However, I may have unravelled the mystery, or at least part of it. With some more thought, it all may become clearer.
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