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Re: Proven once again: Winged Balrogs Fly, let's move on :) (was Re: Balrogs with wings?) | White Council Forum Archive - msg 14988

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Topic: Re: Proven once again: Winged Balrogs Fly, let's move on :) (was Re: Balrogs with wings?)    Reply to: msg 14974
Posted: June 22, 2000 at 19:05:08: by Russ
:snip

: The Balrog's wings spread from wall to wall in the immense cavern.

This is my main problem with the "wing" argument - the "like shadow" debate is worse than hitting your head against a wall.

The Balrog itself simply wasn't that big. Earlier drafts had it man-high. And even in the final draft, it had to be small enough to be able to fight on a bridge meant to be only wide enough for a single dwarf to pass. The bridge after all was built specifically to be narrow as a defensive device. Tolkien describes a great shadow in the middle of which was a man-shape form but of greater stature. Thus we have a man-shape form surrounded by a great shadow.

The balrog's shadow, not the balrog as almost enveloped Gandalf: "Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone..."

The Balrog's sword leaps out from the shadow.

As the Balrog falls, the shadow actually preceeds it down the chasm.

A Balrog that while larger than Gandalf would have to be reasonably sized enough to balance and fight on Durin's Bridge simply could not have physical flappy wings that spread from wall to wall of that cavern. It clearly had shadow-stuff wings emanating from it's penumbra but there's nothing in the description to lead me to believe it had wings in the sense of Ancalagon or Thuringwethil. Or that he needed them to "fly"

: As you suggest, flying should have been an impracticality in the chasm. However, Gandalf said they fell a long time, and even though the Dwarves had never measured the depths of the chasm it is highly probable that the Balrog floated down to the water as Gandalf hacked at it and it burned him with its flame.

I think either or both maia could have slowed their descent through their innate power regardless of whether one or the other had wings.

: : Significant also are the records of the Wars of Beleriand.
: : There is no suggestion anywhere of Balrogs launching aerial
: : assaults....

: Incorrect. They flew over Hithlum to reach Lammoth and help Morgoth against Ungoliant.

Or they were just moving real fast. Fly you fools! An aina could probably fly without the need for physical wings. In his confrontation with Luthien and Huan, Sauron was able to shift forms at will. While not as powerful as Sauron, I think even lesser ainur could have shifted their raiment quickly.

:snip

: The Balrog of Moria spoke. He uttered some profanity which Gandalf dropped the mountain on him. :)

Ahhh, the filters at work.

:snip


Russ



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