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Re: Proven once again: Winged Balrogs Fly, let's move on :) (was Re: Balrogs with wings?) | White Council Forum Archive - msg 14991

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Topic: Re: Proven once again: Winged Balrogs Fly, let's move on :) (was Re: Balrogs with wings?)    Reply to: msg 14988
Posted: June 22, 2000 at 19:39:51: by Michael Martinez
: :snip

: : The Balrog's wings spread from wall to wall in the immense
: : cavern.

: This is my main problem with the "wing" argument - the "like
: shadow" debate is worse than hitting your head against a wall.

: The Balrog itself simply wasn't that big. Earlier drafts had
: it man-high. And even in the final draft, it had to be small
: enough to be able to fight on a bridge meant to be only wide
: enough for a single dwarf to pass. The bridge after all was
: built specifically to be narrow as a defensive device. Tolkien
: describes a great shadow in the middle of which was a man-shape
: form but of greater stature. Thus we have a man-shape form
: surrounded by a great shadow.

But the Balrog didn't make it to the center of the bridge. The bridge was wider where it was attached to the sides of the chasm. Gandalf stood in the center of the bridge but there is no indication of who moved toward whom in order for the two weapons to meet with a clash. The Balrog did, however, draw itself up to a great height. Whatever size it may have had before, it clearly stretched or grew or extended itself so that it was larger (taller) than Gandalf (although this might apply only to the wings).

: The balrog's shadow, not the balrog as almost enveloped
: Gandalf: "Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he
: seemed small, and altogether alone..."

: The Balrog's sword leaps out from the shadow.

: As the Balrog falls, the shadow actually preceeds it down the
: chasm.

Tolkien does not say the shadow precedes the Balrog. He says first that "the Balrog fell forward" and then subsequently says "its shadow plunged down and vanished". The shadow, in this case, should be equated with the Balrog (which, as you may recall, was introduced as a shadow).

: A Balrog that while larger than Gandalf would have to be
: reasonably sized enough to balance and fight on Durin's Bridge
: simply could not have physical flappy wings that spread from
: wall to wall of that cavern. It clearly had shadow-stuff wings
: emanating from it's penumbra but there's nothing in the
: description to lead me to believe it had wings in the sense of
: Ancalagon or Thuringwethil. Or that he needed them to "fly"

You're assuming that the Balrog's body was somehow "physical". This thing breathed fire. It apparently had some density but I cannot emphasize enough that the Balrog's body was simply not the usual flesh-and-blood combination one was used to seeing.

Whether the wings should or could have flapped is not resolvable, nor either convenient or inconvenient to the fact of the Balrog's having wings. Ancalagon and Smaug were dragons, not Balrogs. Their physiologies were those of living, breathing creatures which could bleed (and did, when pricked). Where does Tolkien say the Balrog bleeds?

: : As you suggest, flying should have been an impracticality in
: : the chasm. However, Gandalf said they fell a long time, and
: : even though the Dwarves had never measured the depths of the
: : chasm it is highly probable that the Balrog floated down to
: : the water as Gandalf hacked at it and it burned him with its
: : flame.

: I think either or both maia could have slowed their descent
: through their innate power regardless of whether one or the
: other had wings.

Quite possibly. My point, however, is that the description of their long fall together doesn't imply that they dropped as a rock would all the way to the bottom. The Balrog seems to vanish suddenly, implying its descent is uncontrolled, and yet it lashes out with its whip, entangles Gandalf, and drags him down with it so they spend the next unmeasured amount of time trying (unsucessfully) to kill each other.

: : : Significant also are the records of the Wars of Beleriand.
: : : There is no suggestion anywhere of Balrogs launching aerial
: : : assaults....

: : Incorrect. They flew over Hithlum to reach Lammoth and help
: : Morgoth against Ungoliant.

: Or they were just moving real fast.

[snip]

Impossible. They would have set Hithlum aflame had they just been running on the ground. There is no indication that Hithlum was burned, or that the Elves had to get out of the way.

That one objection to the "Balrogs actually ran all the way to Lammoth" argument has never been countered even in the most unreasonable fashion, that I can recall.


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