: : The Balrog itself simply wasn't that big. Earlier drafts had
: : it man-high. And even in the final draft, it had to be small
: : enough to be able to fight on a bridge meant to be only wide
: : enough for a single dwarf to pass. The bridge after all was
: : built specifically to be narrow as a defensive device. Tolkien
: : describes a great shadow in the middle of which was a man-shape
: : form but of greater stature. Thus we have a man-shape form
: : surrounded by a great shadow.

: But the Balrog didn't make it to the center of the bridge. The bridge was wider where it was attached to the sides of the chasm. Gandalf stood in the center of the bridge but there is no indication of who moved toward whom in order for the two weapons to meet with a clash.

Actually, it says the Balrog moved onto the Bridge:

1. "The Balrog reached the bridge"
2. "Gandalf stood in the middle of the span"
3. "His enemy halted"
4. "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings
5. "But Gandalf stood firm"
6. "It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and...drew itself up to a great height
7. "But still Gandalf could be seen"
8 Fight begins

Galdalf remains planted in the middle of the bridge. The Balrog comes to him. Gandalf never moves, only the Balrog.

: The Balrog did, however, draw itself up to a great height. Whatever size it may have had before, it clearly stretched or grew or extended itself so that it was larger (taller) than Gandalf (although this might apply only to the wings).

The inside shape was "man-shape maybe, yet greater" But the shape was in the middle of a great shadow. The Balrog drew itself up to great height, but the only thing that spread frm wall to wall was its shadow.

The Balrog is neither soley form nor shadow alone, but rather a form within a shadow.

: : The balrog's shadow, not the balrog as almost enveloped
: : Gandalf: "Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he
: : seemed small, and altogether alone..."

: : The Balrog's sword leaps out from the shadow.

: : As the Balrog falls, the shadow actually preceeds it down the
: : chasm.

: Tolkien does not say the shadow precedes the Balrog. He says first that "the Balrog fell forward" and then subsequently says "its shadow plunged down and vanished". The shadow, in this case, should be equated with the Balrog (which, as you may recall, was introduced as a shadow).

"With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell, it swing its whip..."

I agree it's impossible to determine the precise order of events or even if there is an order or whether things are occurring simultaneously. What appears consistent is that there is a separation between the form of the Balrog and the shadow that surrounds it.

: : A Balrog that while larger than Gandalf would have to be
: : reasonably sized enough to balance and fight on Durin's Bridge
: : simply could not have physical flappy wings that spread from
: : wall to wall of that cavern. It clearly had shadow-stuff wings
: : emanating from it's penumbra but there's nothing in the
: : description to lead me to believe it had wings in the sense of
: : Ancalagon or Thuringwethil. Or that he needed them to "fly"

: You're assuming that the Balrog's body was somehow "physical". This thing breathed fire. It apparently had some density but I cannot emphasize enough that the Balrog's body was simply not the usual flesh-and-blood combination one was used to seeing.

I don't see any evidence of that. It was just as much flesh and blood as the raiment of any other aina. It was subject to physical harm as was Morgoth, Sauron, Gothmog, Sauron again, Gandalf, Saruman, etc. It was flesh and blood enough that it could be killed.

Side note: What movie is that line from? "If it bleeds we can kill it." Great line. :-)

: Whether the wings should or could have flapped is not resolvable, nor either convenient or inconvenient to the fact of the Balrog's having wings. Ancalagon and Smaug were dragons, not Balrogs. Their physiologies were those of living, breathing creatures which could bleed (and did, when pricked). Where does Tolkien say the Balrog bleeds?

Swords seem to have some effect on them. Morgoth bled. Are we to suppose that Morgoth could bleed but balrogs could not?

:snip

: : I think either or both maia could have slowed their descent
: : through their innate power regardless of whether one or the
: : other had wings.

: Quite possibly. My point, however, is that the description of their long fall together doesn't imply that they dropped as a rock would all the way to the bottom. The Balrog seems to vanish suddenly, implying its descent is uncontrolled, and yet it lashes out with its whip, entangles Gandalf, and drags him down with it so they spend the next unmeasured amount of time trying (unsucessfully) to kill each other.

Agreed.

: : : : Significant also are the records of the Wars of Beleriand.
: : : : There is no suggestion anywhere of Balrogs launching aerial
: : : : assaults....

: : : Incorrect. They flew over Hithlum to reach Lammoth and help
: : : Morgoth against Ungoliant.

: : Or they were just moving real fast.

: [snip]

: Impossible. They would have set Hithlum aflame had they just been running on the ground. There is no indication that Hithlum was burned, or that the Elves had to get out of the way.

I don't know whether Tolkien was considering the effects of friction on the Balrogs' passage over the plains of Hithlum.

I really don't have a philosophical problem with Balrogs having wings or flying. However, I don't think their shadowy emanations were it.

: That one objection to the "Balrogs actually ran all the way to Lammoth" argument has never been countered even in the most unreasonable fashion, that I can recall.

Ainur could move though space. I don't know why its inconceivable that they could haul ass without the "raiment" of wings. We're talking raiment here.

From a pure physics and physiology standpoint, Balrogs flying at 500 mph is just as absurd as running at 500 mph. We're talking wings, not jet engines here.

Russ