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Re: Proven once again: Winged Balrogs Fly, let's move on :) (was Re: Balrogs with wings?) | White Council Forum Archive - msg 15008

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Topic: Re: Proven once again: Winged Balrogs Fly, let's move on :) (was Re: Balrogs with wings?)    Reply to: msg 14999
Posted: June 23, 2000 at 02:46:56: by Bacchus
: :snip

: : : The Balrog itself simply wasn't that big. Earlier drafts had
: : : it man-high. And even in the final draft, it had to be small
: : : enough to be able to fight on a bridge meant to be only wide
: : : enough for a single dwarf to pass. The bridge after all was
: : : built specifically to be narrow as a defensive device. Tolkien
: : : describes a great shadow in the middle of which was a man-shape
: : : form but of greater stature. Thus we have a man-shape form
: : : surrounded by a great shadow.

How wide would the Bridge have been? Let's consider this. The Bridge was an arched span 50 feet in length. Structurally, you can get the most narrow overall passage by starting wide and tapering in the center. At the most narrow point, it could have been as much as five feet wide. (Think about it-if you put two marks five feet apart on the floor, you will have no problem crossing between them, and could even cross in double file. However, if you are crossing a chasm under fire and carrying arms, you need a little more space. Also, you wouldn't want to have clumsy dwarves falling off the Bridge every other day;)).

Therefore, a large creature could easily balance himself on the Bridge.

: : But the Balrog didn't make it to the center of the bridge. The bridge was wider where it was attached to the sides of the chasm. Gandalf stood in the center of the bridge but there is no indication of who moved toward whom in order for the two weapons to meet with a clash.

: Actually, it says the Balrog moved onto the Bridge:

: 1. "The Balrog reached the bridge"
: 2. "Gandalf stood in the middle of the span"
: 3. "His enemy halted"
: 4. "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings
: 5. "But Gandalf stood firm"
: 6. "It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and...drew itself up to a great height
: 7. "But still Gandalf could be seen"
: 8 Fight begins

To continue here: First clash of weapons, Balrog's sword destroyed.

Balrog falls back. Gandalf retreats one step. "With a bound, the Balrog leaped full upon the Bridge."

This implies that the Balrog was not far out on the bridge for the first clash. Gandalf was in the center. The bridge was fifty feet long. Therefore, Gandalf and the Balrog were at least 15-20 feet apart when the Balrog attacked with his sword. By implication, the Balrog must have been huge to be able to reach this far.

snip

: Side note: What movie is that line from? "If it bleeds we can kill it." Great line. :-)

Predator, with Arnie and the Honorable Governor Ventura :-)

: : Whether the wings should or could have flapped is not resolvable, nor either convenient or inconvenient to the fact of the Balrog's having wings. Ancalagon and Smaug were dragons, not Balrogs. Their physiologies were those of living, breathing creatures which could bleed (and did, when pricked). Where does Tolkien say the Balrog bleeds?

: Swords seem to have some effect on them. Morgoth bled. Are we to suppose that Morgoth could bleed but balrogs could not?

I've gotta go with Russ on this one. Sauron bled as well when bitten by Huan.

snip

: : : : Incorrect. They flew over Hithlum to reach Lammoth and help
: : : : Morgoth against Ungoliant.

: : : Or they were just moving real fast.

: : [snip]

: : Impossible. They would have set Hithlum aflame had they just been running on the ground. There is no indication that Hithlum was burned, or that the Elves had to get out of the way.

Umm, what Elves? I might be totally wrong here, but didn't the Noldor following Fingolfin settle in Hithlum partially because
Thingol had no power there? That bit of obnoxiousness out of my system, I do agree that the Balrogs flew across Hithlum.





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