White Council

Re: Wing Evidence and word structure | White Council Forum Archive - msg 15168

White Council Forum Archive
Original Xenite.Org White Council Forum Archive

Site Map


All Archives Top White Council Archive Index Archive 75 Index


VISIT LIVE TOLKIEN FORUM
Topic: Re: Wing Evidence and word structure    Reply to: msg 15152
Posted: June 25, 2000 at 14:52:23: by Tony Balrogs Have Wings Gustafson
Before I proceed here, I just want to state for the records that I do not know why I continue to participate in the balrog debate.
It's quite clear that it cannot be resolved...but here I am :) Fandom has its downsides, eh?

: The Hithlum passage is not that simple. The Balrogs arrived as a tempest of fire. It's the "tempest of fire" part of the passage that is the most crucial, but all the parts must be taken together. They cannot (at least, they have not yet) be replaced by equivalent phrases which mean anything other than flight occurred.
: But such a descriptor has not been used of invading forces alongside "swiftly they arose" and "passing with winged speed over ..."
: Failing to take the entire passage into consideration invalidates any attempt at analysis. All you're doing is taking phrases out of context.

Whether you take that particular passage as a whole or break down and examine the individual pieces, the fact remains that it can mean flightless balrogs. It's a good example of the ambiguity of the English language. Personaly, I believe it does refer to flying balrogs, but I would be loathe to use it in an argument as it can refer to something else.

We can get into a discussion of semantic probablities, but without the creator available to reveal his true vision, such a discussion would be useless.

: Nonetheless, they [tempests] are a part of the sky. The sky begins where the ground begins.

Huh?

: It would be just as invalid to say, "Well, Tolkien used 'tempest of fire' to speak of the flying dragons, so 'tempest of fire' can only refer to things in the sky". It refers to flying Balrogs because the rest of the sentence, taken together with "tempest of fire", makes it clear that they were in the sky.

In terms of syntax, that is partially correct. However, it can be viably argued that the syntax of the Hithlum passage is clouded by murky semantics. The only clear syntax of balrog description to be found is in the passages describing the incident at Durin's Bridge.

: Your other criticisms are fair. But if one side raises an issue, no matter how illogical, the other side should respond, or an impression is laid upon the audience of an invincible argument having been given.

I don't deny that people should debate issues they disagree with,
but it helps to eliminate arguments that cannot aid the progression of the debate.

: There isn't really anything to be gained from the study of Balrogs, except perhaps an insight into J.R.R. Tolkien's vision of dreadful evil.

I would argue that the study of balrogs; specifically Tolkien's use of them, could have a place in academia. But let's not go there :)



Contact us | SF Fandom | Privacy Statement


SF Fandom Sites

SciFi Forums
Archives
Forum Short Addresses
Other SciFi Sites

Xenite.Org Network

Science Fiction & Fantasy
SF Fandom
SF Worlds
The Queen of Swords
Tolkien Studies

Popular Network Sites

Entertainment Search Engine
Grace Park
Harry Potter News
History of Xena
Lord of the Rings News
Mizuo Peck
Poster Store
SciFi Search Engine
Star Wars News
White Cheese Dip
Witch World Page
Xena: Warrior Princess
 

This page is copyright © 1997-2007 by Michael L. Martinez. All rights reserved.
No portions of this page may be reproduced electronically or otherwise without express permission from the copyright holder, except as occurs in normal browser caching and page indexing.

No random scifi pages were incorporated into this archive. However, the truth about Balrogs may have been mentioned at least once. Learn more about Balrogs: Balrog of Moria. Read more Tolkien essays.

Created by SEO Specialist Michael Martinez. Search engine optimization and search engine optimization provided by SE cOnsulting.