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Topic: Re: Noldor Elves and their disappearing act.....    Reply to: msg 15328
Posted: June 29, 2000 at 15:02:13: by Dave aka Don Quixote
: : : I have returned from a lengthy adventure (and I bet noone even noticed my absence!!) Anyway, at the conclusion of my quest (yes, I won the heart of the maiden, so no worries there) my happiness was tarnished, the gloss had come off my victory. What was troubling me was thus - Silmarillion 'Of the Rings of Power and The Third Age' - it appears that Tolkein intimates at the conclusion that ALL Noldor Elves left Middle-Earth by the end of the age - 'In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from Middle-Earth...And latest of all the keepers of the Three Rings' - it strikes me however that not ALL Noldor would want to leave - some surely would not have forgiven the Valar for the First Age, and what about youngsters still enamoured of the wide lands now free of Sauron's malice????
: : : So we have a direct statement which I do not think is compatable with the realities - anyone got any snippets from elsewhere to gainsay the Profs statement? Or any thoughts on this?????
: : : Don Q

: : It is quite possible that Glorfindel did not leave with Elrond et. al. There is no mention of him boarding the Ship or being in the company of the Ringbearers. I have some recollection of reading a letter where Tolkien was asked about Glorfindel's absence and he made no responce to that question (unfortunately I cant find it in Letter's and thus may be confusing it with something else). Also Imladris seemed to maintain some population into the Fourth Age. It is not unlikely that some of those were Noldor.

: :I would have to respectfuly disgaree with you on two (2) points

: (1)The Noldor had no reason to "forgive the Valar for the first
: ag". They had broken the ban of the Valar, particularly the
: the Noldor who toak the oath of Feanor. It was they who had
: to suffer to earn the forgivness of the Valar. Galadriel
: and Celeborn are interesting cases as Galadriel, of all the
: Noldor, did not swear the oath. She also fought against the
: Noldor at Aqualonde as she was of Olwes kin. Celeborn was
: kinbsman of Thingol and a Teleri. He did not fall under the
: ban. Galadriel fell under the Ban because she chose to
: leave with the Noldor for Beleriand (and by extension Middle-
: Earth) to rule there 'a realm under her own hand' She also
: refused the pardon of the Valar at the end of the first age
: (The History of Celeborn and Galadriel)as it was her fate
: to achevie her desire (the one ring)and use it to rule #

Here I must Disagree with you. The Noldor left Valinor in the first place beacuse (rightly or wrongly) they disagreed with the non-interventionist policy of the Valar. The Valar chose not to offer succour to the Noldor in their exile and left them to a terrible fate - some Noldor would not forgive them for this, and indeed amongst the Valar themselves, Ulmo felt that the call to Aman was wrong, the Elves should have been left in Middle-Earth and not ordered to Valinor like some sort of Prison Camp.....
Hence some Noldor at end T.A would have no reason to return (not many I acknowledge, but some IMHO)
: (2)It is not implicitly stated in TLOR that any Noldor other
: than the ringbearers departed with Gandalf and Frodo and
: Bilbo. It is also mentioned somewhare in Christoper
: Tolkeins works, either The Shaping of Middle Earth, or The
: Unfinished Tales (See Chapter 4 'The History of Galadriel
: and Celeborn')that Celeborn did NOT leave with Galadriel.
: That he infact remained behind at Lothlorien and later
: Imladris. Weather Glofindel reamind benhind with other
: Noldor is not made implicit in JRR's drafts.

It is however implicitly stated in Silmarillion that the Noldor have left (this is where my original query stems from) - see my original quote. This I feel is an oversight on the Professors part and does not stand up under examination as plausible.
Celeborn is not a Noldor so does not enter this discussion.
Glorfindel I feel may have remained as Gildor (a minor character in the world) is mentioned whereas Glorfindel (The chief Guardian of Rivendell) is not mentioned on the ringbearers ship.
I would assert that a small Cadre of Noldor remained at Rivendell and in Lindon for some time in the Fourth Age - possibly the descendants the Oathtakers and followers (Maglor and Caranthir both had wives and therefore may have had children in Middle-Earth) Also Curufuin had at least one son (Celebrimbor) and therefore may have had others.....
Clearly the Noldor realm of Lindon still exists in the Fourth Age and therefore some Noldor leadership may be expected - it is not recorded if Gil-Galad had children......
Don Q




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