Posted: June 30, 2000 at 06:44:49: by Dave aka Don Quixote
BIG SNIP!!: : You missed the point!!!: : Your points one by one: : There was ALOT more than eight. Indeed, although only 8 members of the Noldor swore the Oath of Feanor - Feanor and his sons, noone else did, they just followed Feanor into exile. : The exiles comprised Feanor and his seven(7)sons and their kin as well as his brother Fingolfin. Feanor and his sons were cursed since they alone took the oath to recover the Silmarils. The other son's of Finwe: Fingolfin and Finarfin (and their people by extension) did not. This is made clear implicitly in the Valenquenta. Agreed : The other 'High' elves Olwe (of Aqualonde) and Elwe (Thingol) : were not exiles, however, the daughter of Olwe(Earwen)was wife to Finarfin and mother of Galadriel. Finarfin, alone of the sons : of Finwe, forsook the march to Middle-earth and was pardoned by the Valar. His sons, however did not turn back because of their friendship with the sons of Fongolfin. : The exiles included: : Finarfin (who turned back and was pardoned. We can't count him) : and his children: Finrod (Felagund) Orodreth, Aegnor, Angrod and Galadriel and all their people. : and : Fingolfin and his children:Fingon,Turgon and Aredhel : and all their people. : They chose to follow Feanor into Middle-Earth so they came under the Ban of the Valar. Feanor and his sons were EXILED by the Valar because of the oath ( I refer you to page 85 of the Valenquenta. Agreed : as far as Galadriel not taking the oath, : I refer you to pages 83-85 of The Valenqueneta, Chapter9, : 'Of the Flight of the Noldor' : Bottom of page 83. "...Finrod was with Turgon, his friend: : but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day : tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. NO OATHS SHE SWORE, but the words of Feanor concerning : Middle-Earth had knindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm AT HER OWN WILL" (empshasis mine) Agreed but Tolkein drafted many versions of Galadriels history, this is only one of them. : : Your statement/point about 'There was no one ring in the first age" I don't understand. Perhaps I was unclear and didn't finish my sentence. : What I am saying is that Galadriel rejected the pardon of the Valar at then end of the first age for two reasons: : (1)She still whished to rule a kingdom there. : In Tolkien's notes (The Unfished Tales. by Christopher Tolkien : 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' : (2)It was not her duty (nor her fate) to depart Middle-Earth : until Sauron was defeated and all that she desired was within her grasp. Untrue, she COULD NOT depart Middle-Earth at any time until she rejected the ring, she was banned from returning. She believed that her sojourn in M-E was perennial - she was according to Tolkein the last one left (at end T.A) to whom a ban on returning to Valinor remained. : If I may paraphrase from 'The Unfinshed Tales' from JJR Tolkiens : letters: : " Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after : the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle- : Earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, : The Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-Earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever. : Note by Christoper Tolkien: : this last sentence (above) relates closely to the scene in Lothlorien when Frodo offered the One Ring to Galadriel(The Fellowship of the Ring II 7) : "And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen" : There is no trace of these features (concerning Galdriel's motivations) in The Silmarillion, however Tolkiens notes make it clear that this was how he wanted to develop the character of Galadriel. : I reiterate that it is nowhere explicit that Celeborn,or Glorfindel for that matter, left with the three ring keepers : (Elron, Gandalf and Galadriel) and Bilbo and Frodo. Cirdan remained behind since many of the Woodland elves as well as remaining Telerian elves (such as Celeborn) still lingered in Middle-earth after the fall of Sauron. The only indirect : reference to Celeborn after the departure of the three is in the : appendices of The Return Of The King. Apendix A. 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'. There is reference to Arwen returning to Cerin Amroth, : "and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and : passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel HAD PASSED AWAY : (emphasis mine) and Celebornm also was gone (where to?), and the land was silent." : I agree ref Celeborn although my original question was to do with Noldor Elves, not Teleri/Nandor (depending on which history you believe) - Celeborn remains for some consoderable time in Middle-Earth, and the lack of a defined date of his departure is interesting too. Where too? Well he ruled East Lorien for a while so its quite possible he was there or at Imladris when Arwen died... Cirdan, No I disagree strongly here, Cirdan is clearly fated to return with the ringbearers (as a ringbearer himself) There is no purpose in his remaining in Middle-Earth, and we see in HoME pt 12 he had a burning desire to see Valinor, what better time to deaprt than end T.A? I refer you to Silmarillion - 'As for me my heart is with the sea, and I will dwell by the Grey Shores until the last ship sails - there I shall await thee' to Gandalf upon his bestowl of Narya. Then... 'White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken' That ship IS the ringbearers ship, the last of the Elder days, NOT the last ever ship... Cirdan would have had Falathrim successors at the Havens. I return therefore to my earlier point - I think it is not unreasonable to suppose a small number of Noldor remained with Glorfindel at Rivendell, and a small number remained in Forlindon as the ruling class there - the descendants (I believe) of Maglor, Caranthir and Curufuin who all had wives (according to HoME pt 12) and therefore probably had children - these Noldor are the least likely to leave Middle-Earth because of the curse laid on their forefathers - why would they ever want to go to Valinor to meet their 'enemy'?? Don Quixote
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